Search And Destroy - Shakespeare

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JD: if you want something to kick against, check out Norman N. Holland's intro to the Signet HIV#2. Appallingly reactionary: 'everyone must realize his correct place in the natural order', etc.

You might get along better with Graham Holderness on the histories, if you don't already know his work.

For all their qualities, the Henry plays are dispiriting.

the pinefox, Monday, 21 April 2003 11:03 (twenty years ago) link

pinefox: thanks for that, I'll check those out. I've mainly been using Bloom, whose 50-page discussion is mostly a love hymn to his favorite character, with some good insights buried here and there, as when he notes that Falstaff's faults are minor compared to those of every other character (Henry IV = usurper and murderer, Henry V = hypocrite and imperialist slaughterer).

The Bush/Hal parallels are eerily obvious:

"Be it thy course to busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels, that action, hence borne out, may waste the memory of the former days."

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 21 April 2003 11:21 (twenty years ago) link

It's astounding that HV is framed, explained and anticipated with those lines, yet still enthusiastically accepted as a celebration of going to war.

Or perhaps I mean: how can we reconcile Shakespeare's 'support for war' in HV with those lines at the end of HIV2?

They really are the Smoking Gun; or perhaps the Discharg'd Pistol.

Other major issues:

1) does HIV as a whole seem to legitimate the Henries as Kings? If it wants to do so, why insist so often on their illegitimacy, as usurpers? (Empson said that usurpation was the secret theme of the Henriad.)

2) How facile is it that HIV tells HV: "I was never seen as legitimate, cos I was a usurper; but you'll inherit from me, so you'll be seen as legitimate"? (This is what gets me thinking of Bush: not the father-son succession, but the way Bush will find later ratifications of his initially bogus legitimacy.)

3) How about the trickery and treachery of the royal forces in HIV2, Act IV? Unbelievable! The King's party is Machiavellian through and through.

4) Note the utter callousness, with a strong class edge, of Hal in HIV1. Not so much the famous soliloquy in which he dissociates himself from Falstaff et al (bad enough), but the dreadful scene in which he 'humiliates' the Drawer Francis ('Anon, anon!'), then has the cheek to mock Francis's lack of verbal range! It is insupportable to read of this character being endorsed as 'mirror of English kings', 'ideal form of the monarch' (see the astoundingly bad finale to Maynard Mack's intro to Signet HIV1).

the pinefox, Monday, 21 April 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

What I find spooky about Hal is his absolute indifference to human life (which obviously serves him well enough as king and conqueror): he seeks out Falstaff because he's more entertaining than his real father, but he doesn't really care about either of them. Bloom notes that Hal is constantly on the attack whenever we see him with Falstaff in Part 1, and his attitude becomes positively murderous during the "play extempore" at the end of Act Two, when he openly declares his intent to banish Falstaff; meanwhile, the scene where Henry wakes up to see his son trying on the crown speaks for itself, though Hal tries rather weakly to defend himself in Falstaffian mode.

Although Henry V is commonly portrayed as a hero-king (see Olivier's film) I don't think many people in any audience feel that way by the end of HIV Part 2.

What do you make of the epilogue to that play? It seems baffling to me: I can't think of another play Shakespeare felt the need to apologize to the audience for. It also seems odd that he promises to bring Falstaff back in the next play, and doesn't (not that he could have had any place in it, without ruining the patriotic bombast).

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 21 April 2003 12:06 (twenty years ago) link

It is strange - in an interesting way; I like metatheatrical Shakespeare. The epilogue chimes somewhat with the Induction - how much drama in that mere stage direction, 'Enter Rumour, Painted Full of Tongues'! And how about the offer to dance, and the mysterious claim that 'All the gentlewomen here have forgiven me'? The note to my text says 'perhaps the Epilogue was spoken by the Page', as though that explains it. According, again, to my text, the function of at least the last para of the Epilogue is to dissociate Falstaff from his historical model Sir John Oldcastle, by saying that they met different ends.

Very strange. Empson again (Kenyon Review, Spring 1953): Falstaff's 'food for powder' speech says to HIV: "that is all you Norman lords want, in your squabbles between cousins over your loot, which you make an excuse to murder the English people".

the pinefox, Monday, 21 April 2003 15:25 (twenty years ago) link

JD: you should also look at

C.L. Barber, Shakespeare's Festive Comedy (1959) on folk tradition and carnival (and cf also Bakhtin, Rabelais And His World)

Robert Ornstein, A Kingdom For A Stage (1972), on history and Shakespeare's aesthetic play with it in the histories

Derek Cohen, Shakespearean Motives (1988), on rituals of violence

Graham Holderness, Shakespeare's History (1985), on politics of Shakespeare's epic drama

the pinefox, Monday, 21 April 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...
Justyn D: I have been meaning to tell you that GEORGE ORWELL, in some brief early-40s piece, also agrees with us about 'Prince Hal', whose name I still seem unable to write without inverted commas.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 18:42 (twenty years ago) link

I've seen a supposedly complete collection of Orwell's essays around; next time I'm in the bookstore I'll see if I can find that piece.

question for debate: who was the Hal/Henry V of Orwell's day?

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:33 (twenty years ago) link

The Enigma machine?

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:34 (twenty years ago) link

saw hank 5 yesterday, loved it.
prince hal and all that.

anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:43 (twenty years ago) link

has anyone ever read the humour piece called "Prince Harry Hotspur"? It's about some schoolboy who didn't pay attention and ended up thinking that Prince Hal and Harry Hotspur were the same person. He then has to explain away the scene where they FITE as being Prince Hotspur taking on the dark side of his character.

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:55 (twenty years ago) link

That sounds like something Kramer would do.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:56 (twenty years ago) link

Actually it's more Joey from Friends.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:56 (twenty years ago) link

I wuv Shakespeare as a playwright. It's strange, but he is always held up as being the pinnacle of drama, yet no one tries to write like him (you know, write plays with battles and political events and wars and stuff in them).

one day I will change this.

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:57 (twenty years ago) link

no one writes plays where everyone talks in iambic pentameter either. someone should change this.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:58 (twenty years ago) link

DV, do you know Edward Bond's Lear?

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:59 (twenty years ago) link

i don't know that play.

did Edward Bond do Early Morning, the one about Queen Victoria having an affair with Florence Nightingale, and her heir being half of a pair of siamese twins?

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:11 (twenty years ago) link

http://teacherweb.com/IL/Golf67/Joyner/Shnikeys-Shakespeare.jpg

Dada, Tuesday, 8 July 2003 22:25 (twenty years ago) link

(you know, write plays with battles and political events and wars and stuff in them)

Surely, in its way, Angels In America fits this criterion.

Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 23:04 (twenty years ago) link

twelve years pass...

just watching this again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHlngY6Bgk

as a result of reading this
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/apr/03/ian-mckellen-10-best-shakespeare-roles-on-film?CMP=fb_gu

proper chills.

piscesx, Sunday, 3 April 2016 17:29 (eight years ago) link

one year passes...
two years pass...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08b2cgm

Released On: 21 Apr 2020

Khalid Abdalla, Matthew Needham and Cassie Layton star in Shakespeare's tragedy. This version is staged in an imagined near future, in which a power-hungry Turkish president attempts an attack on Cyprus. The western forces rush to Cyprus' defence, under the command of the fearless General Othello. But can an Arab-born, Christian convert ever be truly accepted by the people he serves?

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 21 April 2020 11:09 (three years ago) link

two years pass...

Shakespeare our contemporary. pic.twitter.com/fxFi5WijMy

— Stephen Unwin (@RoseUnwin) January 25, 2023

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 25 January 2023 09:58 (one year ago) link


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