tinnitus

i have had a few 'ears ringing for a couple of days' experiences that have made me live in fear of contracting tinnitus permanently. i got some earplugs recently - not custom ones but they're a step above the cheapo foam ones and don't totally deaden the high frequencies when at a gig or a club.

Is it possible that obsessing over your hearing makes it worse, that is, paying too much attention to whatever hissing or ringing is in your ears already as opposed to tuning it out. Also, does frequent use of earplugs (not just at shows and the like, but on buses and subways) have potentially bad effects?

I've never really considered the psychological effects, but hmmn, it might not be a bad idea.

yeah, I've heard of people seeing a doctor about their tinnitus only to be sent off home empty-handed, informed that it's 90% psychological and that they should just try to shut it out.

I don't think there are any issues with using earplugs.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHH

*bangs head with fists*

I've had a low running case for years. Much as I love the Kitchens of Distinction, I have them to blame.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:39 AM

I've also had a low-level ringing for a long time now. There are a few concerts I've been to that did not help, but mostly I blame the fact that I didn't understand how much damage headphones can do, not for a long time. The first time I remember having a really scary spell of tinnitus(*), I was about 16 and had been listening to Jimi Hendrix for about three hours with a huge pair of 70's studio-style headphones. The danger of well-sealed headphones is that there's no outside reference point to the volume, so when something's awesome, you just turn it up louder, then quickly get accustomed to that volume, then turn it up again when something else is awesome. Thank God I hadn't discovered Fun House back then. I'd be stone deaf. Or worse -- stone deaf except for a constant noise inside my head.

I had a nasty spell of it six or seven years ago that lasted for weeks, and since then I'm extremely careful about taking earplugs to shows. I'm also married to my Shure headphones, which let me listen to music at a reasonable volume even in loud places (trains, busy streets), because they totally plug your ears in addition to their usual function.

(*For those who don't have it, it can indeed be scary -- imagine thinking, even knowing, that you will be hearing this same irritating noise inside your head forever and ever, no matter what you do. There's a theory that Van Gogh cut of his ear in an ill-advised attempt to stop his tinnitus. When it persists long enough, the fear subsides -- more like slumps over in exhaustion -- and becomes a sleeping but threatening thing in the corner that colors your moods even when you don't realize it. Bottom line is, it decorates the space inside of your head in a way you cannot control, and that's horrifying.)

Indeed. As I've said upthread I have had mild tinnitus probably most of my life. I cant recall a time without noise I noticed at least in dead silence (slight whooshing, sometimes high pitched whistles or beeps).

In the last 2 years, I started to notice a constant low frequency thrumming in my skull, it bugged me, as sometimes I can *feel* it, like I'm hearing a truck idling at a distance. But again, it wasn't that noticeable. I'm realising now it was sneaking up on me - when I got a bad headcold last month my ears clagged up as they usually do and I went rather hard of hearing... but when that cleared up, the deafness and noise did not. I can now hear loud sheering ringing in my ears, coupled with the low frequency hum, even over a fair amount of noise.

It makes sharp high frequencies startling and loud, and conversations impossible to follow in noisy crowds (like at the pub). Its invading my sleep. It makes my head feel like its full of pressure.

It really is incredibly bothersome.

Oh and the worst of it is, I'm not a headphone wearer nor much of a loud concert goer. So it isnt volume damage. I dont know what it is, it could be genetic, it could be smoking, could be meds I take. I dont know. I guess I need to find out... somehow.

I wish you the best of luck. I never heard or read of anyone who knows what exactly tinnitus is.

In the meantime, I just try to arm myself.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/bottle-of-foam.jpg

I buy in bulk.

I have this. It is a huge bummer.

Earplugs would do nothin for me, I dont get exposed to much loudness! Also, total fear of anything in my ears merrghrhr.

I just pretend I'm listening to an ambient album by Merzbow all the time. Makes me feel really cool.

i have had to learn to love the ring.
its like having a constant FAX cd on a loop in my head.

xpost.

This is one of my biggest fears. I keep a pair of earplugs on me at all times, usually, just in case. I also keep an earplug loosely in my right (slightly worse) ear when I listen to music. It's very frustrating, and I don't get to listen to nearly as much music as I'd like, because if I'm not responsible I'll get pangs of ringing, pain, and bad pressure, like a few days ago, forcing me to go 4 days this weeks without music :(

Also, are there particular frequencies that are worse for your ears? Like are repetitive bass drums going to do more damage than say, mid or high range guitars, for instance?

I imagine there's no limit to the frequencies that can damage your ears, and likewise everyone's head noise is special like a snowflake.

Assuming that hearing damage is indeed what tinnitus is. We don't really know that for sure. There's correlation, though, for damn sure, if not causation.

I've had a low running case [of tinnitus] for years. Much as I love ______________, I have them to blame.

^^^Wouldn't have guessed the Kitchens Of Distinction!

the notorious 4k notch

your ears are better protected against low frequencies (that's why they don't explode every time you're out in a strong wind), but that theory kinda goes out the window at loud concerts, since the bass ends up having lots of more destructive frequencies appearing alongside it just as a result of natural distortion and so on.

After I saw The Flaming Lips (of all notoriously loud bands?) my hearing was fuzzy and pitched up a few tones for several days. That was fun. I will assume that that's the main reason for the EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE that interrupts the sounds of silence in my head.

Tinnitus is generally associated with hearing loss, as the ringing is always there (it's from all that stuff in your head like blood cells etc. that are right next to your ear, I think) but your brain filters it out. When you have hearing loss, your brain detects it, and turns up the volume so to speak to cover it up.

I wish I could just have a child's eardrums implanted into my head, that would be nice.

Tinnitus is generally associated with high frequencies, I think - as you get older, your ability to detect high frequencies decreases dramatically. For example, it is accepted that people can hear up to 20khz, but many people top out at 16khz.

I remember reading somewhere awhile ago that the military had developed some pill that could protect hearing, provided you took it before/after being exposed to loud noise - apparently it was just a concentrated cocktail of antioxidants, which was supposed to counteract all the free radicals which are released by your ear hairs when they are assaulted by, say, a Dinosaur Jr. concert. Or something.

this whole thread is making me nervous given that tonight i will be experiencing a gig for the first time in quite a while.
a small pub, loud guitar kind of experience.
the joy and the pain.

I have to go to a 5 music festival in a few weeks, I'm pretty nervous about that (although I find using nasal rinse bottles and taking decongestants to relieve pressure helps, if only as a placebo).

the ringing is always there (it's from all that stuff in your head like blood cells etc.

I seriously doubt that blood cells etc make any kind of sound, at least not that our ears are designed to pick up. The straight-up as-we-know-them physiological explanations don't quite work, or else someone would have already put an evil, bony finger on them and concocted a sketchy drug to "treat" it. (Cynical? Moi?)

It seems to be either neurological or psychological, but of course you can't rule out physiological factors. The trouble is that something like this, with no outward symptoms that doctors can see with their eyes, no way to learn about it from a cadaver -- this shit stumps medicine every time. It's a cocktail of causes, very likely. Ever try to un-mix a bloody mary?

i've had a strange case of tinnitus, ever since i saw lightning bolt. not only was i standing five feet away from their mind melting amps, but i also got kicked in the head a few times, by some dude who seemed to be having a seizure while crowdsurfing. best show i've ever been to.

anyway... that was two years ago, and i've had a lot of trouble sleeping, since. forgot the last time i found sleep before 5:00 AM.

hardcore.

every single detail of that story is extreme. I think you should lay off the Mountain Dew and see if that helps.

wear ear plugs, people

i'm studying for neuro right now, but tinnitus never came up unfortunately. some thoughts, tho:

-- my dad has tinnitus, and has ever since an injury to his inner ear (lifting something very heavy underwater...blew up one of his ear drums)
-- it's possible to hear blood flow: clinicians do it all the time w/steths, but it's possible to hear it internally, too! after i go running or whatever i 'hear' my heart pounding.
-- my guess is that tinnitus as a result of loud music might have something to do with damaging the hair cells that are responsible for transduction of vibratory input to neuronal signal. damaging them might make them 'always on,' so as far as your brain is concerned, there's a XXX kHz pitch going at all times. that might also explain why tinnitus is associated with higher pitches: higher frequencies mean higher energy, so i guess it isn't surprising that they'd be more damagin

also, according to the internet, there's something called "objective tinnitus," which is a sound that a clinician can hear, too, if they listen to your ear! neat!

interesting. i don't have much of a problem with continuous ringing, only after shows and occasional thing where i hear a high ringing pitch that goes away after ten seconds or so. but after going to an audiologist i found out that i've definitely lost some hearing in the upper range, and that's mostly from overexposure to LOW pitches (well, there have been a lot of loud high pitches too over the years).

it's possible to hear blood flow: clinicians do it all the time w/steths, but it's possible to hear it internally, too! after i go running or whatever i 'hear' my heart pounding.

Ok, yes. It's pretty obvious that's not the problem, though. I shouldn't have responded to that post at all -- totally my bad.

damaging them might make them 'always on,' so as far as your brain is concerned

That's interesting! Of all the ear doctors I have been to, not one of them ever said that. That almost makes... sense.

the going theory on tinnitus, and the one that makes the most sense to me, is that the mind "fills in" a frequency which it notices is missing from the sound spectrum to which it was accustomed before the listener's hearing was damaged. your hearing can be damaged for a little while before your brain "notices" that it's not getting information from (say) the 4k region, at which point it starts feeding you the tone 24/7.

the other thing is that bass frequencies do the most damage - they don't "carve out" at the frequency where they occur; they damage the high receptors.

word

wear ear plugs, people

^^^^ I can't stress this enough.

the other thing is that bass frequencies do the most damage - they don't "carve out" at the frequency where they occur; they damage the high receptors.

― worm? lol (J0hn D.), Thursday, May 7, 2009 12:49 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

genuinely curious about the mechanics of this! wonder if it's due to how frequency transduction is arranged along the basilar membrane: high frequencies come "first" along the length of the membrane, low frequencies at the far end. given a high amplitude signal of any frequency, the high-end receptors will ultimately be subject to the most disruption. that is, any given sound wave will pass by the high-freq receptors, but not all will 'make' it to the low-freq receptors.

someone who knows about sound/harmonics: so, i feel like i've 'heard' high tone harmonics while listening to low tones, but not the other way around. assuming that's true (that is, that low tones are more likely to have high tonal 'activity'), then it would make sense that very loud, low-freq, complex tones (construction sounds, lightning bolt) would preferentially damage high-freq receptors because a) they'd be getting spiked activity even in the absence of clear, isolated high-freq tones and b) the basilar membrane is generally less-compliant (stiffer) at the high end anyway (a structural necessity for high-freq transduction)

given a high amplitude signal of any frequency, the high-end receptors will ultimately be subject to the most disruption.

(this is not strictly true...only in the case of a complex tone, with harmonics. the basilar membrane is designed such that a clear tone of a given freq will preferentially deform the membrane only at the point of maximum amplitude for that freq. but, we don't sit around listening to sine-waves all day, so if low-tones have the ability to 'encode' harmonic information in a way that high-freq tones do not, it would stand to reason that high-tone receptors are seeing more action at any given time)

30 seconds of wiki would suggest i'm on the right track, here

can u tell i am procrastinating

genuinely curious about the mechanics of this!

you're ahead of me here - my training's in nursing, I generally know a little of the "what" and less of the "how"

the going theory on tinnitus, and the one that makes the most sense to me, is that the mind "fills in" a frequency which it notices is missing from the sound spectrum to which it was accustomed before the listener's hearing was damaged. your hearing can be damaged for a little while before your brain "notices"

This would certainly go with my experience. I have 2 "noises" in my tinnitus; a very low humming and a quite high pitched sound in multiple "notes" as if listening to the fade out of some bells. My bf has played me that "note only teenagers can hear" frequency before and he can hear it (he says) and I cannot. Also the TV apparently makes a hideous whistle when it has no signal I can never hear.

I *have* had one damaging concert exp: mogwai about 5 years ago with no earplugs, couldnt hear too good for 2 days afterward. Thats it though. I dont use bud earphones ever.

I read somewhere some ppl think codiene can aggravate swelling/irritation in the hearing fibres. I wonder if thats true? Also, I'm sure sure sure smoking is doing something bad?

the thing is, as you get older, the li'l hearing receptors are gonna go anyway, mogwai or no. talk to some old people - an incredibly high number of them have tinnitus, it's just that it's about 9th on their list of physical complaints

Yeah, tell me about it. God i'm only 38 and I'm already going deaf and getting stiff in the limbs. TOO SOON GOD PAL.

if you still have your youthful shape then count yr blessings young'n

I pictured you shaking a cane at me while saying that, J0hn =)

Xposts: Taking too much aspirin can make your ears ring (don't know about codeine, though)

And I was just reciting what an ENT told me, and information I've gotten (second-hand) from audiologists.

I just don't understand how people can go to events every weekend, listen to music for hours a day and live to hear.

Nah, never take asprin so its not that. I suppose it could just be from that one Mogwai gig, but I fear J0hn's right and the answer is just lol u old.

;;_;

...and smoking. That has to be doing something. Though if I have a few days off it makes no diff. I wonder how long a temp case of tinnitus takes to wear off if one ceased the cause?

cheers! i'd make the same offer but my webmail address is long defunct, but i'll be here anyway if you need support &c.

Non-stop the past three weeks. Not sure if there's a connection to what's going on--I was thinking that all the silence plays a part.

Went through a very anxiety-filled week, also a week of almost non-stop tinnitus. I know a couple of things that were causing the anxiety, but I think the tinnitus played a role. I've read that stress/anxiety can be one of the contributing causes of tinnitus; I get the feeling it's like a feedback loop, though, and the tinnitus in turn exacerbates the anxiety. Today, for reasons as mysterious as ever, almost no tinnitus--and it was such a relief, I felt calm the whole day.

I got written up at work right around the same time as the pandemic started to kick in and my tinnitus volume level exploded. it's not great! its gotten less extreme lately but I also got laid off from the aforementioned job so I have no daily stress, just long term stress.

i wish you both well.

i keep meaning to start meditating. i think you're exactly right about the feedback loop, clem.

Huh, didn’t know about the anxiety and stress link. Would l-theanine help?

I got that from the Mayo Clinic site (under "Lifestyle and Home Remedies"):

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20350162

To help with the anxiety, I bought some Melatonin over the counter a couple of days ago. I guess it's possible that that helped with the anxiety, which in turn helped with the tinnitus...but that seems a little too quick and too easy. I think it's more likely today's break was attributable to the randomness of this crazy thing.

Haven't noticed a correlation between noise and heat before but the ringing is fierce today. Coincidence?

I haven't noticed that, but it's something you'd have to consciously check. I'm on my second quiet day in a row after a few days of non-stop activity.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-tinnitus-treatment-alleviates-annoying-ringing-in-the-ears/

Steep price tag, not surprisingly, but promising. I'm guessing some of it would be covered by insurance.

electrically stimulating touch-sensitive neurons in the tongue or face can activate neurons in the auditory system

Say what?!

My tinnitus is noticably higher in one ear than the other. I feel the need to tune my head.

It's such a mystery how all over the place is. I think I can categorize and roughly quantify it:

40% of the time, it's either not there at all or I'm not conscious of it, which as a practical matter probably amounts to the same thing. When I am aware of its complete absence, especially when out walking late at night, it's like a gift.

25% of the time, it's very faint--there, but not a bother at all. I'd accept this 100% of the time if given the choice.

25% of the time, it's actively annoying, enough to spoil a walk.

10% of the time, often after waking from a nap with the TV on, I'm thinking "Are you kidding me?" And I regret every time I ever listened to music really loud in the car.

from that xpost Scientific American coverage: Our approach is to make everything in the auditory system much more hyperactive to everything but the tinnitus.
Reminds me of reading long ago that William Shatner was trying a headset, I think it was: white noise biofeedback, auditory system learning to ignore tinnitus. He said it was making a significant difference, but I don't know about long term results

just listen to Merzbow once a week (not kidding)