rolling "Is This Racist?" thread

I think the AA thing is more a LOL @ Conservatives than anything, given the context of the show. But I'd need to rewatch that particular ep to make a more informed opinion.

heh, ive always thought that 30 rocks default political position was a kind of moderately conservative LOL @ liz's sad bourgeois liberalism. not gonna try to defend that necc but 30 rock always struck me as a conservative show -- not in a bad way necc.

that liz tracey equality episode was pretty stupid i thought. seems a little easier to talk about specific moments & subplots than the show as a whole -- i think its done stuff thats really cutting and smart and stuff thats, if not racist, not very well thought out

― max, Monday, May 14, 2012 2:57 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^This. I think any comedy writing around race is going to have some failiures, and where these jokes fail, they're gonna stray into that territory where they can be perceived as racist. And I think it's fair game to call out those failiures. I think it makes sense to draw attention to specific instances, because, generally speaking, I would not accuse 30 Rock of being a racist show.

but 30 rock always struck me as a conservative show -- not in a bad way necc.

― max, Monday, May 14, 2012 4:18 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, I feel exactly the same way.

... really?

not arguing with you, i just don't get a conservative feel from it at all.

twofer was always an insufferable snob, and the show frequently made humor from subjecting him to costanza-esque abuses, like getting grammar-pwned by tracy in the first episode, finding his ancestor fought for the confederates, etc... in fact, if they did turn him into the respectable black straight man of the type that tim meadows would usually play on SNL, that would be way way worse in terms of comedic condescension.

p nunez otm. it's a sensibility that shares something in common with what i think of as "british humor": the idea that it's especially hilarious to see characters who believe that they are noble (but who are actually quite petty) struggle to retain their dignity in the face of constant humiliation.

not arguing with you, i just don't get a conservative feel from it at all.

― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, May 14, 2012 4:21 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, if only because liz's liberalism is the butt of so many jokes.

LOL @ liz's sad bourgeois liberalism

I pick up on the conservative feel too, but I think the show is largely apolitical in that most of the political jokes make fun of the liberal and conservative characters' self-conceptions, and not the ideologies themselves.

i think the show does a good job of letting Jack get in some jabs against Liz and making her a a very flawed character and not Tina Fey's perfect Mary Sue alter ego, but also that it's pretty clear which one of them is a huge satirical punching bag for an entire political ideology

nick offerman is more seductive conservative hero than alec baldwin

Yeah, conservative in a father-knows-best (with Alec Baldwin as father) kind of way. Conservative sort of the way Jane Austen is conservative (ultimately respectful and appreciative of the order of things) etc.

not arguing with you, i just don't get a conservative feel from it at all.

me either. i think the show has a sort of fond sympathy for what it see as the futility and hypocrisy of liberalism, but also an angry streak directed against the arrogance, dishonesty and abuses of conservative wealth & power (jack's constant self-zings). overall, i see it as politically disengaged - a portrait of how things are, rather than an argument that they should be any different.

i've always found the '30 Rock is secretly conservative meme' to be a little sub-Zizek sophistry

at least as formulated in 2009 by slate. maybe the argument has picked up a little sophistication since then:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2009/05/i_want_to_gop_to_there.html

totally

i dont think its "secret"! and i dont think its "conservative" like mitt romney is conservative. i think liz is as much a punching bag as jack is, and i think it hits harder b/c her politics and character are much less cartoonish [and also because presumably the audience hews closer to liz than to jack].

i mean the show does kind of show a continued disregard for what might be uncharitably described as "identity politics" -- i think this is something that hurting is getting at when he wonders if its racist -- & to me thats a conservative position, even if its not about flat taxes or anything

it seems to me like the show's creative team just knows that being as stridently left as Alec Baldwin is as a public figure would be a total comedy killer and so they try to get laughs out of both sides of an issue whenever possible

liz is a punching bag but not even half as much in a politically pointed way as with jack

i mean, there are more jokes about him loving Reagan there are about her loving anything besides sandwiches or Star Wars

THAN there are

right but jokes about him "loving Reagan" are only "political" on the surface -- theyre not critiques of an ideology or political stance or platform

sure no but i'm just saying his character is defined by his political beliefs far more than hers

can't recall Liz espousing a political position of any kind tbh.

some dude OTM

Jack's rightwing politics are part and parcel of his persona as a powerful white man. Liz's politics are nonexistent.

and a LOT of his throwaway lines are more cutting jokes at the expense of the GOP than a whole season's worth of SNL fox news sketches. (xpost)

i mean its possible that i am such a wussy bourgeois liberal that i consider "getting jokes out of both sides of an issue" a kind of inherently conservative gesture. like i said it doesnt *bother* me. i still think its the funniest show on tv!

yeah i guess my sense is that making fun of the crazies in the GOP barely counts as "political humor" at this point. also youre crazy if you think liz's politics are "nonexistent" -- shes explicitly and clearly a liberal feminist. i mean this comes up super frequently, its part of the jack-liz relationship.

haha are you coming out as a closet West Wing fan (xpost)

that slate piece is pretty good, really, especially in how it characterizes the show's relationship to feminism and gender (not to liberal politics in general).

like i guess when i watch the show jokes at jack's expense are more often than not these kind of cartoonish "crazy tea partiers!" jokes that dont really touch on the ideology at the heart of the modern GOP. whereas the jokes at liz's expense are actual critiques of her "liberal values" -- i.e. the 'equality' episode

i think a lot of Donaghy lines are slightly more specific than "lol greed is good amirite" but fair enough

xp - that in turn suggests that the show takes liberalism seriously and only sees conservatism as a crazy sort of joke

when Jack 'wins' an argument with Liz it's because the company that made her great jeans is secretly owned by Haliburton and the joke's on her, not that Haliburton is actually awesome and she shouldn't be chagrinned by that

yeah, i mean i dont think that 30 rock gives jack, or conservatism, a pass

how about the ep a few years ago with carrie fisher? seems impt to this discussion.

donaghy is slightly cartoonish but his, idk, para-political identity as a competent, hard-driving self-made executive is not really undercut ever, and liz's (and others) characters objectives bend around that

xps

when Jack 'wins' an argument with Liz it's because the company that made her great jeans is secretly owned by Haliburton and the joke's on her, not that Haliburton is actually awesome and she shouldn't be chagrinned by that

― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, May 14, 2012 4:42 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right but this is one of the oldest conservative zingers in the book! like that occupy wall street photo with all the arrows pointing out that they bought their clothes at the gap or whatever.

“We have been creating and solving this country’s problems for 200 years. Where’s our history month?”

i thought that joke where the baby kept saying 'mommy' and jack kept thinking she was saying 'money' was pretty lol

I think that Slate piece is sort of right but maybe runs a little too far with the argument.

its also kinda whiny. the slate piece.

one of the show's running jokes is the way kenneth's aw-shucks, god-fearin' nice guy shtick occasionally lets slip a whiff of fascist intolerance. and jack is constantly making throwaway jokes about ostensibly trivial environmental and human consequences. american conservatism on 30 rock is a stupid, monstrous lie, a con that rich people use to get their way and manipulate rubes. liberalism, otoh, is a complex philosophy that decent, intelligent people struggle with in actually trying to negotiate life.

Liz's politics seem more like a satire of lazy kneejerk liberalism or liberals with latent prejudiced and/or conservative beliefs than an actual "no really check out this dumb lib" kinda thing imo.

coincidentally the new inquiry had an essay a couple days ago about 30 rock/tina fey and women/feminism

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/the-unfuckables/

like the famous "will say i'm voting for obama and then vote for mccain" line is liz in a nutshell

i'm probably the worst person to say this but sometimes you can outthink yourself on something like this and i think that's what the 30 rock conservative argument is doing

Liz's "feminism" is basically limited to herself and how she thinks she deserves a job/respect/authority. I can't recall a single instance of her addressing an actual liberal cause like, say, being pro-choice or against the Iraq invasion or anti-global warming or whatever. Her worldview is completely myopic, it's a politics of narcissism.

idk about that article? i mean

She is currently in a Garnier Nutrisse shampoo commercial in which she tosses her glossy mane without a trace of irony.

the irony is that she's wearing a wig imho

to be clear im not endorsing the TNI article, presented w/out comment