_Avatar_, directed by James Cameron

Did you mean to quote something else there, Zach?

no? you said no one is claiming that avatar is still culturally relevant, i quoted contenderizer at least being 'agnostic' about my assertion that it isn't; i'm not sure why he would post that other than to imply that it might still be relevant, which... it isn't.

dear lord it's almost 5 PM

few if any major conservative organizations took up arms against it.

There was definitely at least one. I am having trouble remembering whether it was over fundamentalist concerns (movie is animist/pagan) or nationalist ones (movie likes terrorism)

you said no one is claiming that avatar is still culturally relevant, i quoted contenderizer at least being 'agnostic' about my assertion that it isn't; i'm not sure why he would post that other than to imply that it might still be relevant, which... it isn't.

― JIM THOMETHEUS (zachlyon), Tuesday, May 8, 2012 1:57 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i voiced my "agnostic" doubts simply to make the point that unfounded claims are unfounded. i quibble with the unsupported blanket assertion that the film never meant anything to anyone.

i agree, fwiw, that avatar has dropped precipitously off the cultural radar. i came into this round of the discussion agreeing on that point and haven't changed my position.

beyond that, i've only defended what i see as the film's strengths, primarily thematic but also cinematic.

dear lord it's almost 5 PM

we ALL win.

no? you said no one is claiming that avatar is still culturally relevant, i quoted contenderizer at least being 'agnostic' about my assertion that it isn't; i'm not sure why he would post that other than to imply that it might still be relevant, which... it isn't.

Your assertion, if I've traced it back right, is that the film had no cultural currency, that it was garbage from the start, that no-one connected to it. This seems like the same argument as goole/Adam earlier, that people only went to it for the hype. If I've got you/contenderiser wrong sorry about that, but I don't think he's arguing what you think he is.

i quibble with the unsupported blanket assertion that the film never meant anything to anyone.

i quibble w ur strawman tbh

y'all

"the general mainstream" is not synonymous with "everyone, ever"

So we're looking at the world's biggest cult hit?

it's the opposite of a cult hit! everybody saw it but nobody cared about it much after a while.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Right, but still we get back to $1,000,000 gross on week 17.

to be fair that's about $28 without 3D

Not to mention the $4,000,000 on 800 screens when it was re-released four months after that - that's what fascinating, that there were still people who couldn't get enough of this film that's faded from cultural view since.

I think the porn industry usually has the answers here

i quibble w ur strawman tbh

no one was ever going to give a fuck about jake sulee and the noble blue people, and no one was going to go nuts over the story from fern gully and dances with wolves and a billion other movies.

i do agree that the film has lost its pop cultural currency. that's it.

ok great semantics i'm out

Not to mention the $4,000,000 on 800 screens when it was re-released four months after that - that's what fascinating, that there were still people who couldn't get enough of this film that's faded from cultural view since.

― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. the fade is fascinating, imo. it doesn't necessarily prove anything specific about the film or its place in the long-term cultural memory, what posterity will say, but it does raise a lot if interesting questions.

People forget there was "mega-schadenfreude" that preceded "Titanic," too. Which of course had its own horrible script, etc., but it at least had characters you cared about. And it was totally all about class, maaaaaan. At a time of great economic prosperity! Subversive, man, subversive.

Is there usually mega-schadenfreude whenever a film is too long in production and known to be way over budget, or does the director have to be sort of widely-resented first?

I think there needs to be some degree of hubris and/or ambition involved, sure. But I'm not sure mega-schadenfreude became a thing until the "Heaven's Gate" to "Ishtar" era, when over-budget Hollywood career/studio-killing disasters became a big punchline.

I will say that, pre-"Titanic," I don't think Cameron was resented, though he was ambitious. Post "Titanic," sure, he made a nice target. But then, if "10-foot tall blue people in 3-D" doesn't bring the advance LOLs ...

Don't forget Liz's Cleopatra though...

While it was in theatres: "It's a lot better than you think." "The 3d is amazing."

As soon as it was out of theatres: "Should I see this through Netflix?" "See what? Oh, probably not."

I think it has the cultural relevance of the halloween blizzard of '91. If you're from the midwest, you know what I mean. If not, don't worry about it.

I guess it has relevance in that it helped to hasten the switch from film to digital, generate a buzz around 3D, and forced a lot of early adapters to spend a lot of money.

otm. 50 years from now it'll be like "the robe"-- "wait, THAT was the move that put digital projection and 3D on the map? and a zillion people went to see it? um, alright."

that's assuming our civilization is still intact in 50 years

it'll become a gnostic gospel in our post-civilization forest society

Titanic used class the way countless romances have, except the template is usually poor girl-rich boy.

"10-foot tall blue people in 3-D" doesn't bring the advance LOLs

/racist

"culturally irrelevant" until hype for avatar 2 starts & ppl pretend forget that the 1st one was shit, paint selves blue

...And the 'poorish' girl-rich boy thing is there, but it's to stomp on snarling Billy Zane.

xp

Billy Zane. I don't know why, but that dude puts me off.

mean

I hate Zane too. Total movie-killer.

You know which movie's incredibly high place on the adjusted B.O. gross list always shocks me? The Sting. Now there's a movie with a seemingly limited cultural cachet.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

Unless that just represented the perfect storm apex of '70s nostalgia.

the sting rules

^ otm

"culturally irrelevant" until hype for avatar 2 starts & ppl pretend forget that the 1st one was shit, paint selves blue

― johnny crunch, Wednesday, May 9, 2012 7:25 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

have been thinking about that throughout this discussion. cameron's supposedly got two sequels in the pipeline. if they're hits on anything like avatar's scale, then i suspect that all this "culturally irrelevant" talk will seem a little silly in hindsight. "invisible in the moment, from where i'm standing" isn't precisely the same as "irrelevant", after all.

This movie didn't come across anti-war, it came across more pro-one dimensional woodland tribal innocents vs. one dimensional US military racists. Maybe slightly more anti-war than Star Wars in that the idyllic Navi is far more hippie than the rebels. But still, total time showing military technology, lingering on awesome attack helicopters, glorifying explosions, etc. Still felt like it glorified war, only in a context that made it way easy for left wingers to want one side to win.

yeah, i wouldn't call avatar anti-war in general. any antiwar reading is stymied by cameron's obsession with heroic combat and military tech. hell, it's pro-war if anything.

it does take a strong stance against imperialist aggression (lol safe targets) and not-so-subtly critiques america's military "adventurism" in the middle east (esp in just-post-bush-era context).

have been thinking about that throughout this discussion. cameron's supposedly got two sequels in the pipeline. if they're hits on anything like avatar's scale, then i suspect that all this "culturally irrelevant" talk will seem a little silly in hindsight. "invisible in the moment, from where i'm standing" isn't precisely the same as "irrelevant", after all.

― 10. “Pour Some Sugar On Me” – Tom Cruise (contenderizer), Wednesday, May 9, 2012 4:35 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or they could be like the star wars prequels and make a shit-ton of money without anybody really being that enthusiastic about them.

honestly re. the question of whether avatar is anti-imperialism or anti-bush or something just solicits a "who cares?" from me. the stakes are pretty much nil.

loving how the matrix: revolutions is still culturally relevant in 2012, it's a popular cultural touchstone among my friends

People who left the movie wishing they could be a blue person vs. people who left the movie wishing they could ride in one of those high-tech military body suits.

or they could be like the star wars prequels and make a shit-ton of money without anybody really being that enthusiastic about them.

Stressing again, little kids LOVED these. That is, I have never heard a little kid play Luke. They all want to be Anakin, for play, for Halloween, for whatever. Mission accomplished, Lucas.

"Matrix" sequels remain undeniably relevant as examples of "what not to do."

"Matrix" sequels remain undeniably relevant as examples of "what not to do."

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, May 9, 2012 4:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, these are some of the worst studio pictures of the last 20 years.

http://io9.com/prog-rock-fantasy-artist-roger-dean-suing-james-cameron-618691718

Awesome

Why now?

Did Dean check his email for the first time in five years?

lol roger dean

― velko, Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:00 PM (3 years ago)

I haven't managed to watch the trailer, but saw a bit on TV. First thoughts were "ugh/lol, furries" and "roger dean/patrick woodroffe should sue" but WTF I imagine on a big screen, in 3D, it would be an entertaining enough spectacle. I agree w/whoever it was who said it looks like a game cutscene.

― \/*|_*/-\*|) (Pashmina), Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:20 AM (3 years ago)

@coryischaki: 10 word Avatar review: Space marines vs Roger Dean painting set to Enya.
― Elvis Telecom, Friday, December 18, 2009 3:53 PM (3 years ago)

yeah i kinda liked the hippy-dippy roger dean look of a lot of it.

― hear shart attack (latebloomer), Monday, December 28, 2009 12:30 AM (3 years ago)

hey i guessed right! wayne barlow did do "creature design" on this.

roger dean needs his credit tho

xp lol

― chartres (goole), Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:08 PM (3 years ago)