Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

Peggy's gambit last week seemed absurd and suicidal, but Don has taken similar approaches and they worked

this was totally intentional tho. Peggy was very deliberately aping Don's diction, mannerisms and speech patterns - but it backfired for the reason some other (female) character previously noted, "no one likes a woman who acts like a man"

I agree. I don't think it was down to being bad at her job.

with shakey and gubke here. there's every indication in the show that peggy really is remarkably good at her job. it's just that the show says this more than shows it. similar to pete's apparent excellence when we mostly just see him being a weaselly little dork. the problem is that the show doesn't devote much time to the day-to-day advertising work that sustains the company, not that peggy is poor at her job or a fundamentally unbelievable creation.

the only thing they really show is that she works insane hours.

the problem is that the show doesn't devote much time to the day-to-day advertising work

this isn't a problem. a show that did would be mind-numbingly boring.

cuz then every episode really WOULD end with someone selling beans or whatever

i still don't get the "there's no way a person with Peggy's story ever existed" jab from yesterday. like, what aspect are we talking about here? her promotion/career arc - or private life?

remembered something else - it was Peggy's idea that was used for the ad that won the Clio

xp

i mean problem relative to how we understand the characters' relationships w their jobs. dramatically, it's obviously a good call.

Well, that's the thing though. Impression is all the show operates on when it comes to Peggy. She is often said to be good, but whenever we actually see her doing anything related to a pitch, her idea is poorly thought out or needs significant finessing by Don to actually be a pitch rather than toothless brainstorming ("you can't frame a phone call"). She is never shown to be a heavy hitter that can get the job done on her own, and when we do see her solo her ideas usually aren't great and she can't land a pitch. It was actively weird when Don tried to say that her ideas were ahead of their time at the end of season 3 when he was trying to get her to join the new agency, when she hadn't actually created anything on her own that entire season.

I don't think the show necessarily means to portray her as bad at her job, but she's pretty much never been shown as being good at her job, and that's a pretty significant failure on the part of the show. When we hear about her, she's great. But when they bother to show her working, it's only when she's fucking up or collaborating with Don and not really contributing much. I honestly can't think of a time when Peggy has been shown as hitting anything out of the park or really impressing anyone.

― Melissa W, Friday, April 27, 2012 1:07 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

in addition to what everyone else said, she's like 15 years younger than don! of course she's not as experienced or successful as him -- the dynamic (which is shifting) is that he's good at his job & she's a rising talent, and i think they convey that dynamic effectively

On the bright side, SCDP isn't just riffing on the Volkswagon ad like a lot of their lesser competition seems to

I think this raises the interesting question of the show's relationship to Don's supposed "genius"--is it agnostic on that front? (I'm thinking in particular of that amazing ep where Don says that kids are already nostalgic for the childhood they are in the middle of and not so much the "love was created by men like me in order to sell nylons.")

well he sure has been shown to be fucking up quite a bit over the last season and a half

this isn't a problem. a show that did would be mind-numbingly boring.

Disagree with Shakey, agree with contendo. The excitement that was captured on S1E1 ("Lucky Strike: it's toasted") has never been equalled. The show had the opportunity to be a Sherlock Holmes / Law & Order style 'weekly puzzle', but has dissolved into the flimsy race/gender commentary (well said, btw, Melissa) and character-based melodrama. I still like the show, sure, but never as much as I did in the very beginning.

The show had the opportunity to be a Sherlock Holmes / Law & Order style 'weekly puzzle'

you think TV needs more of this why now

i like both, but L&O is about 100x the show that MM is

you are insane

@ Shakey, you know what I mean, don't be like that. The (successful) ad presentations, as rare as they've become, are the best part of the show imo.

I'm not sure I know what you mean at all...? I hate formulaic procedural dramas, especially legal/cop ones (for all kinds of reasons), the idea that Mad Men would be better off being some kind of topical puzzle show strikes me as bizarre.

I'm not really interested in ad presentations themselves. they're only interesting on Mad Men because of what they reflect about the characters involved.

I feel like the real strength of MM is that it avoids either a "weekly puzzle," a "social commentary" approach, or a history-based Forrest Gump style boomer narcissism. the show seems totally unwilling to congratulate its viewers for their progressiveness (imo).

Instead, I think the most compelling thing about the show are the little burst of absolute weirdness (Roger barfing is my fav example, it almost seems surreal the way its staged and shot.)

Maybe the show should be about an accounting firm. x-post

agree with ryan. it's an amalgam of all those things but it routinely frustrates their respective conventions. and the weird stuff - roger barfing, the lawnmower crippling, the LSD trip, dream sequences and flashbacks - are part of a lineage that comes from Twin Peaks via the Sopranos.

just like to pop in to say "roger barfing" was literally the moment i knew i was gonna keep with the show.

I wish they'd mine the advertising angle a bit more, but it's a worthwhile undercurrent to have through the show. It's kind of the running joke that these people are trying to read people to sell stuff when they have such a difficulty reading themselves, and that they can ignore the larger world while attempting to understand it to create a fictional, simplistic idea of it to sell products.

Also advertising is about as disgusting a line of business as there is, so that's always there.

xp @ Shakey, I was agreeing with contenderizer's statement that "the problem is that the show doesn't devote much time to the day-to-day advertising work that sustains the company".

What interested me most about the show isn't Betty's State of Mind or the Continuing Adventures of Joan... what interests me is seeing the characters talk through ad campaigns, have a moment of inspiration, pitch the campaign, run the campaign.

I mentioned SH and L&O b/c both are character-oriented shows that have "work" at their core. Not b/c I think Mad Men ought to follow a weekly formula.

TBH of all Melissa's criticisms the 'it's really boring and I hate all the character' one is the one I relate most to because I've found that about things everyone else was head-over-heels about in the past. The other arguments feel like her criticising it for not being something it's not trying to be, and I think the writers have valid reasons for not trying.

Peggy and Don's relationship is totally antagonistic but at the same time is kinda the way things work in real work environments - employee does all the work, boss puts a bit of dressing on it and gets all the credit, employee gets disgruntled. It's kinda parallel to Pete/Roger, except that you know Don actually respects Peggy in some way and Roger is genuinely useless whereas Don actually contributes something. And Peggy is less of an entitled dick than Pete.

isn't this the same argument everyone else is having about Girls and race?

I think there are merits on both sides. I don't expect all entertainment to answer to all needs of every segment of society. But sometimes I expect more, too. It's odd that Star Trek: TOS managed to be integrated and not make a big deal out of it, I guess since it wasn't saddled with having to exist in the real world of its time.

uh TOS made a VERY BIG DEAL out of it. First interracial kiss etc

see also: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", numerous references to 20th century racism (Nazi planet, "Space Seed", etc.)

This idealized version of Mad Men that you are all describing sounds absolutely terrible.

I was agreeing with contenderizer's statement that "the problem is that the show doesn't devote much time to the day-to-day advertising work that sustains the company".

contenderizer only meant this was a problem in the context of evaluating how well Peggy (and others) actually are at their jobs, not that it was a problem in terms of the show itself. which I thought he made clear.

er well = good

I'm curious as to what the "idealized version" of Mad Men anyone is describing is.

Peggy is black and owns and insurance company that solves advertising-related crimes every week

roger sterling plays the janitor, who barfs at inappropriate moments

carries a bucket of sawdust.

well, i assume an idealized version involves the show taking on issues of race and people of colour in a more head-on manner as well as dealing with a more successful female copywriter character to better reflect a specific part of reality. nothing wrong with wanting that, mind. though i'd imagine you'd hope they did it in a more entertaining fashion that weiner and his writing staff.

To me 'idealized' as a pejorative though implies that I want the show to be American Dreams or something that is generally softer and kinder to the time period. Which couldn't be further from what I want.

my impressions is we were discussing "idealized" in the sense of what version of the show would most satisfy you.

I guess I'd like to know why that "sounds terrible" then.

I'd keep Roger barfing if it helps.

I don't think it sounds terrible, though it would most definitely be a minefield that could get very terrible, very quickly.

It's not this show, though.

can't believe nobody's pulled up that roger barfing gif yet btw.

is there anything on this show that ISN'T an anigif

yeah but barfing was og iirc

with the weird dance everyone was was doing in the background

what interests me is seeing the characters talk through ad campaigns, have a moment of inspiration, pitch the campaign, run the campaign.

while this is fine - most campaigns don't go this smoothly. insert after "pitch the campaign", "get shot down by client, come up with even more inspired concept, get shot down, present a safe, uninspired pile, run campaign."

which is more similar to what we were seeing with those fucking beans!

it seems the AMC series "The Pitch" is gonna scratch that itch

well, i live that, so... :S

not heard of the Pitch tho, will check 'er out.