the wire is not nihilistic and neither is Girls fwiw
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:32 (twelve years ago) link
partly discussed in q5 of this interview, spoilers i guess
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/10/dunham_girls_sex_scares_men/singleton/
― max, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:33 (twelve years ago) link
many xposts:
again my cynical side really doubts that most men identify themselves with male characters or reflect on those scenes and wonder if they have made women uncomfortable, or done something non-consensual. because the nature of dudes who do that kind of thing are not typically the kind of people who challenge themselves. it would be great if it did spark awareness but i'm just highly sceptical. it's really not a criticism of the show but of maleness/culture. it's not a single television show's responsibility to tear down something so complex and deeply entrenched and it IS interesting that it is starting a dialogue by showing it in a different way. (though i wonder exactly *how* different it really is given the amount of pornography that features humiliation/degredation). i agree with mordy that it should be a bigger part of the discourse about this show, for sure.
― bene_gesserit, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:35 (twelve years ago) link
nihilistic is definitely the wrong word, and i chose it poorly
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:38 (twelve years ago) link
fair enough. i didn't mean to be minimizing what a dick the dude she has sex with in the pilot was being, to joke about not using a condom and to try to initiate a sexual act he knew from previous experience she wasn't into. it's just that i think those experiences are pretty common. which sucks.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:41 (twelve years ago) link
i don't think i've ever suggested it was rare. i've not personally experienced it, though, which might account for some of my reaction.
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:43 (twelve years ago) link
friend just pointed out that the issue with a show as concerned with verisimilitude as this one is: you forget that it's a comedy and not everything is serious or totally real. pecs mcanal is her version of Mr. Big and that's part of the gag. that he's mega gross is meant to be funny as he is a not-so-far-from-the-truth version of men available in that age/location/privilege bracket
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:43 (twelve years ago) link
horseshoe has the higher-level discussion PoV all sewn up here, Imma let her stay on that. But I can back up E that the disrespectful/casual treatment of women by their sex partners is completely par for the course. It would be nice if we always got up and left when we should, but we don't because that attitude is COMPLETELY NORMAL and you could date and sleep with people for YEARS and have it always be kind of like that, or not completely UNLIKE that. And unless you have really good models in your life or your levels of self-protection are higher than most people's, you pretty much just go with it. I have. And not in the distant past, either.
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:44 (twelve years ago) link
we all totally know people who would talk about NEVER BE A SLAVE TO THE SYSTEM while cashing gramma rent checks"are you still doing that play""no""why""fuck that guy, he's a dick"^had this conversation like eighty times my first year in nyc
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:45 (twelve years ago) link
that exchange really made me laugh.
― their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:52 (twelve years ago) link
i guess when i mostly see this kind of thing discussed it has generally been in a reactionary anti-sex context (which accounts for my feeling that this show has stuff that a republican might dig) - ie: Caitlin Flanagan, kinda also Wendy Shalit, Mary Pipher, i'm sure some of these writers have handled it better than Flanagan (ugh), but is it possible to say you're concerned about this kind of dynamic, or that you think it's wrong, without being ridiculous and worried about the future of american female innocence? like maybe that's some of the tension - you want to acknowledge that this is common. both common, like, doesn't it suck how widespread and terrible this is? but also common like, it's also no big deal, don't panic over it. am i reading this correctly at all?
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:54 (twelve years ago) link
but is it possible to say you're concerned about this kind of dynamic, or that you think it's wrong, without being ridiculous and worried about the future of american female innocence?
i don't see where innocence comes into it at all? you're right, this is the kind of material flanagan mines in order to indict feminism for giving women too much freedom, but she's just wrong about what the problem is. (and an asshole) thinking the dude in that sex scene is a dick is not the same thing as thinking the dunham character should wait to have sex until she gets married so that this never happens to her, like wendy shalit would say, or whatever. that whole transfer of responsibility is kind of the whole problem with conservative rhetoric about sexual mores.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:57 (twelve years ago) link
It should be a big deal, it should be WAY bigger than women who get subjected to it think it is. But it's horrible NOT because of female innocence for the love of little green cabbages, jesus christ. It's horrible because IT IS BASICALLY NORMAL CONDUCT for a lot of men, a looooot of perfectly nice men who are not in fact obvious douchebags or easily categorizable. It's just ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR IN THE CONTEXT OF CASUAL SEX, and that's the horrible part. Sex can be casual as all getout but why is the loudest narrative one in which both parties are not equally entitled to respect?
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:58 (twelve years ago) link
Did I say "loudest"? Because you can also substitute "only" there, if you want.
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 16:59 (twelve years ago) link
innocence is the paradigm that those conservative writers are working in - lost innocence, etc. obv bullshit + very condescending. xxp
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 16:59 (twelve years ago) link
but that's not the paradigm Dunham's working in. the sex scene is horrible not because her "innocence" has been destroyed, as Laurel points out so well.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:00 (twelve years ago) link
just to clarify, i'm not sympathizing at all with the innocence narrative which is i think is really destructive + terrible. i was just pointing out that it is often the way that ppl like Flanagan discuss the issue. and i'm not claiming that Dunham is doing that either. i kinda feel like maybe i didn't adequately explain myself in the above post...
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:01 (twelve years ago) link
but certainly if Flanagan was going to make a gritty show about how casual sex culture is destroying America she might have a scene where a guy threatens not to wear a condom during sex and tries to initiate anal sex without consent, and another character has a loving boyfriend she hates, and another character has lots of casual sex and winds up unintentionally pregnant.
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:04 (twelve years ago) link
okay now you sound like Bruni
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
women shouldn't make culture that reflects their point of view and experiences because caitlin flanagan is an asshole?
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:07 (twelve years ago) link
i don't know how you got that from what i said. i don't know how you could possible get any opinion from me about whether they should make the show or not from what i said, especially since i've already said that i think the show is really well made and very interesting + provocative, and that part of its value is in bringing up these issues for me.
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:08 (twelve years ago) link
i dont see how the character who hates her bf can be used to argue that casual sex is destroying america, you could easily use that to argue that committed relationships are destroying america
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:08 (twelve years ago) link
i don't understand your point, Mordy
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
also we know next to nothing about the prego girl's situation at all at this point, a caitlin flanagan type could easily chastise this show for making it seem okay for a woman to get pregnant out of wedlock
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
she'd certainly find a way to chastise the show because she hates women, but i think mordy's right that she would use it as evidence of how feminism has ruined young women's lives. but that's because she has only one idea and she says it about everything.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:10 (twelve years ago) link
why are we even talking about caitlin flanagan
did you guys know that caitlin flanagans husband is the president of the barbie division of mattel
― max, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
we know that friend asked, "was it intentional?" and english girl said snarkily, "what do u think?"
i don't think the subtext of discussing this show needs to be 'should it be made or not?' i think that's pretty much the worst context to talk about this, or any piece of art or culture, and is not on my mind. xp to horseshoe
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry, I should point out that I haven't seen the show, I assume from slocki's post that the guy in the ep is actually her boyfriend and I probably shouldn't have used the term "casual sex" but I think there's a sense in which any sex you are having with someone who treats you poorly or disrespectfully is "casual"--they aren't valuing you and you aren't valuing yourself or insisting on anything better so how can that be beautiful or meaningful or intimate or whatever?
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
i think theres really common dynamic in your early/mid 20s where if you like someone more than they like you and you dont have the will or the sense of self or w/e to just stop wanting them or seeing them and so you just let yourself get treated worse than you should? and a lot of times you end up sleeping with this person that doesnt care about you or doesnt care enough like the sex in the pilot where their disinterest and your vulnerability make things really toxic
and like for straight guys i guess this dynamic rarely plays itself out during sex its more like the one girls clingy boyfriend instead but ive def been in situations and feel like its p common for that kind of emotional power inbalance to get ppl to have sex or types of sex they wouldnt choose for themselves in order to please. and i mean to hannahs credit shes asserts herself w/that guy even if she cant bring herself to stop wanting him
― Lamp, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:13 (twelve years ago) link
he isn't her boyfriend, at least teh way it's presented in that ep is that it's a bit of a friends with benefits sitch that she would like to turn into something more
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:14 (twelve years ago) link
lamp pretty otm
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
to clarify for laurel, we see two 'relationships' in the pilot, lena dunham + asshole non-boyfriend who has rapey casual sex and brian williams daughter + michael cera committed boyfriend who is too nice and clingy and makes williams jr cringe so she wont have sex with him
― max, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that seems right; certainly a better frame for the scene than flanaganism
xxp about Lamp
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
also two other leads - virgin mamet character who identifies hard with satc, english cousin of mamet (i think?) who is pregnant and gives protagonist kinda shitty advice
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
and i mean continuing on i feel like in a lot of cultural products where the protagonist is neurotic or insecure or 'unattractive' its a male character who is suffering through this humiliation to get sex from a woman where sex is approval, closeness &c. and it was true and painfully but also funny to see a scene where a woman is using sex itself is the awkward and humiliating thing you need to do to get that approval, closeness. or not get it, which again feels p true to life.
― Lamp, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that's exactly the thing i appreciate about lena dunham's presence on the cultural scene, tbh. i feel like movie mythology about gender and desire is such that women (conventionally beautiful and graceful) are aloof objects for self-doubting men who pursue them for sex. women do get humiliated in those narratives but it's to different ends and a woman like dunham's character can't even exist in that world.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:26 (twelve years ago) link
"lena", based on the pilot and the entire plot of tiny furniture, is a character who is done untoshe doesn't do much on her own and has figured out how to live in a space where things happen with minimal effort and without much aspiration(dunno if anyone noticed but when she takes the housekeeping money, she seems to pointedly NOT take her copy of her memoirs when she leaves)i don't get much of a sense that she has any clearly formed desires yet and that's intended i think as a commentary on the ennui and aimlessness of pampered early 20something millenialkinderso her lack of sophistication/enjoyment from sex seems at least partially connected with that motif though it's a pretty incendiary way to make that point thought maybe that IS the point? kinda?
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:27 (twelve years ago) link
i...don't know about that
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:28 (twelve years ago) link
I go to lunch and thread explodes. Laurel/Lamp otm x1000.
― wolf kabob (ENBB), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:34 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think not taking her memoirs means anything, its a printout
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
its symbolism for the death of print media
― iatee, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
also she's the one who initiates the hangout with the dude, she's the one who tries to turn her internship into a real job, i think she has plenty of agency and aspiration
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:45 (twelve years ago) link
also she actually wrote the memoir, regardless of whether she picks up the printout...
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:46 (twelve years ago) link
don't know if I hate america or girls more
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
also not sure the takeaway from the sex scene was that she needed to be more sophisticated.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
show should have been called 'america' tbh
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:48 (twelve years ago) link
girls (w/ no names)
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.arismixtapes.com/catalog/images/WhiteAmericaOne.jpg
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think not taking her memoirs means anything, its a printout― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki)
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:50 (twelve years ago) link