GIRLS talk (the Lena Dunham thread)

slocks, you're missing the point; it's more like it you work in a hospital that it's coals to newcastle to watch, say, nurse jackie
it's not enlightening and it's exposure to a world you're exhausted with already

I get the comparisons to How To Make It In America (young, New York) but they're really not very alike.

Stevie I've read that a couple places and agree that it probably has something to do with it but don't think that's the sole or overriding reason it's gotten so much criticism. It's oversimplifying it.

ha x-posts

not all of us have a fleet of these lil stereotypes

I want to watch a show about asshole nyu profs

'profs'

slocks, you're missing the point; it's more like it you work in a hospital that it's coals to newcastle to watch, say, nurse jackie
it's not enlightening and it's exposure to a world you're exhausted with already

― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, April 20, 2012 11:54 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

k fair enough, but as i'm not a nyu prof, and few ppl are, it's like...

I don't have to watch the show... I lived it

loooooooool

the nieghborhood has changed so much

also ppl love watching shows about what they do, it gives the something to pedantically complain abt and feel superior to

slocki, normal people don't "review" shows, they decide whether or not it's worth their time based on their interests and lifstyle. you're allowed to crack jokes about getting enough of this shit at work.

thats why i wish more shows were abt posting on msg boards, playing elf warrior 6

good drama or comedy can overcome familiarity - the most popular sitcoms revolve around 'shit lots of people experience' taken to an absurd extreme

If you don't find Girls (thru one episode, of course) to be funny or well-written as melodrama, it's just going to be like hanging out with a bunch of people you dislike.

what sitcoms do anarchists like anyway

'alf'

How I Met Your Mother, Louie IME (ie mine)

a lot of ppl also perversely like watching/commenting on things they dislike or that irk them, like, A LOT so that's a p good premise for a tv show tbh

from everything i've seen lena seems unsure herself to what extent the sexual relationships her character engages in are degrading/problematic (in one interview she says something like that she thinks the character will snap with anger at the way she is abused by the end of the season), sex-positive (she says that the character is completely choosing what is happening, there is no coercion, 'i did enjoy it!' etc), or something in between (and in that Bruni piece she notes that tension in the way the second sex scene was shot and Apatow says, 'you look like you're being murdered'). there's nothing wrong with that tension, and afaik it's the most interesting thing about the show, but also it seems like ppl feel ambiguous about that being at the center of discussion re the show?

obv it's a little unfair to try to break all this stuff down after one episode - and a pilot no less - it does seem a little early to really start putting pressure on that dynamic, but it also seems like the text of the show and i kinda wish ppl would discuss it more but maybe it's too personal a thing to talk about? (in particular, i wish everyone who has said that they relate the most to those scenes would discuss that more and explain exactly how, etc, but maybe that's asking too much)

sorry if this is one note of me - lol - but it's kinda the only part of the show i found interesting

it's funny to watch people go "i can't believe we're talking this much about this after only one episode!" and then keep posting about it. it's ok, guys, people talk about pilots, it's allowed.

although obviously there are some things (especially character development for the supporting cast) that it's not fair to critique the show on this early, etc.

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

i got that from your previous posts, but i didn't get what the better frame for discussing it is

slocki, normal people don't "review" shows, they decide whether or not it's worth their time based on their interests and lifstyle. you're allowed to crack jokes about getting enough of this shit at work.

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:00 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's true tho that ppl actually DO like watching shows about themselves

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

― horseshoe, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:14 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it def bothers me how any sexual experience that isnt like 100%-upbeat and happy and perfect is framed as being such a dark thing

also feel like dunham has been pretty clear on this point? that she's had loving sexual experiences and anxiety-producing ones and that even the anxiety-producing ones she entered into by choice. i don't know that i'm seeing the ambiguity. unless you mean bell's point, that given the long tradition of how women's bodies are represented and sometimes punished onscreen, Girls runs the risk of participating in that tradition even if dunham's intentions are otherwise.

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actually forget the difference, something about where they stand in the room?

lena says in the salon interview that i quoted above that she thinks men will come away from that scene asking themselves if they've been rapey in the past. that's not a not-100%-upbeat and happy and perfect sexual experience, or just an anxiety-producing one.

like, a guy threatening implicitly that he might not use a condom during sex, or initiating anal sex without asking for permission first -- these are rapey things! you can't just handwave it away as less than perfect sex. that's crazy!

and to lena's credit, she obv realizes that and intends that reaction. i don't understand ppl on this thread though trying to downplay it

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actually forget the difference, something about where they stand in the room?

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

one of them is a jaded hateful shell of a person, the other has sexual experiences both positive and negative

to me those sex scenes in tiny furniture and the Girls pilot are welcome in part because i feel like there's very little realistic sex from a woman's point of view in movies and TV. maybe that's obvious, but anyway.

xp i think her point was more...men freak out about this because they want to believe they're great lovers.

and to lena's credit, she obv realizes that and intends that reaction. i don't understand ppl on this thread though trying to downplay it

― Mordy, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:18 PM (50 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'm not trying to downplay it, i'm glad it's being represented as something people go through and react to in different ways

yeah, what s1ocki said

this is one of the conversations that the show seems to elicit that i'm glad is happening

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

like, a guy threatening implicitly that he might not use a condom during sex, or initiating anal sex without asking for permission first -- these are rapey things! you can't just handwave it away as less than perfect sex. that's crazy!

Morday I think both of these things are a lot more common than you realize. You said you want to hear personal experiences - fine. I've experienced both of these thing with more than one guy. Neither are uncommon at all, sadly.

I think louie is a very anarchist friendly sitcom, we should ask HOOS for other recommends.
Monty python one assumes

E otm

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, April 20, 2012 12:23 PM (56 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is an intersting point!

See also the extremely thoughtful and popular pushing down the girl's head move. These are things that some dude's do and a lot of women, especially younger women who want desperately to be liked or may be scared or any number of other things, will experience these and go along with them and not realize they're as wrong as they are because that's sort of what we're conditioned to do.

sexuality is complicated, huh

i mean, i think that's behind bruni's response. which to me is just odd, like thinking dunham is being really mean by having her female characters say mean things about their own bodies or having men say mean things about their bodies. i don't know, to me those responses are like, what world do you live in?

xxp to s10cki

who would have thought?

x-post

there's something about the polarity of relationships here but idk what to say about it exactly. the pecs mcanal hookup dude is portrayed with all of these asshole signifiers, but after having terrible sex with him [lena] is clearly really into him and wants more out of him. [williams kid]'s boyfriend is a sweetheart niceguy drip and she can't stand him.

i don't want to bring j. batman into this but...

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

she did demand he quit the anal talk and that made me like the character more. like when she told her parents she didn't want to see them after they cut her off, it implied she had some self-respect and that we weren't in full-on Solondz-land. Though I want to be clear I'm talking about "likable" in the context of a half-hour sitcom that wants me to watch it weekly, not likability in the sense of real-life reactions to male aggression.