The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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YAOW?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:26 (seventeen years ago) link

are we done here? looks like we're done here. i'm just gonna go ahead and post this again:

http://www.texasfrightmareweekend.com/images/savini.jpg

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:33 (seventeen years ago) link

seems like a good a time as any.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Thank you for that.

― dan m, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:39 (seventeen years ago) link

A lot of people who know shit about hunting often describe it as a pathology instead of a sport (I'm accusing no one here). I don't care for hunting, but into my teens I always went with my dad; it was an excuse to hang out with him and his buddies. As usual, look to the langauge. I never heard anything but the greatest respect for the deer, boar, and turkeys: their mating patterns, what they smelled like, the kinds of prints they left, the grace of their movements. These guys weren't sadists blowing shit away. They never poached: they went during the eight-week period in which Florida allows licensed hunters to bag legal game. If they didn't catch anything -- which is often the case -- there was no recrimination. It may sound bizarre to say so, but I'm glad my dad hunted instead of, I dunno, sat on a sofa watching the Dolphins all Saturday. I find that behaviour more depressing.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:43 (seventeen years ago) link

vahid: that paper was v v excellent, and pretty much sums up the reasons i'm interested in public health

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:05 (seventeen years ago) link

wow thanks anecdotal story

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Humanity caught in being killing machines shockah

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:14 (seventeen years ago) link

NFL games are on Sunday.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:17 (seventeen years ago) link

OK, this thread is so much more rational and nuanced than I imagined it would be.

The anti-gun contingency needs to realize that, for most gun owners, being around guns is natural and maybe even mundane and that interest in guns for sportsmanship, or hunting, or self defense, or for just plain aesthetics is not pathological.

"More guns = more safe" is one of the weaker and most commonly abused arguments by gun rights advocates. Also, while the second amendment has been an effective political tool, it just isn't the coverall that gun rights enthusiasts make it out to be.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Shows how much I know.

EDIT: Waitwait: I've watched NFL games on Saturdays. Are they "championships"?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:23 (seventeen years ago) link

playoffs

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:23 (seventeen years ago) link

xxpost again no problem dude - i actually came across it in my studies because it has implications in managing behavior problems in teens - it shows that escalating the consequences (ie the "risk" of behaviors like jerking mr f0zis chain) isn't useful if the teenager hasn't bought in to the reward system. ie if one of my students assumes that they won't learn math/science/study skills NO MATTER WHAT, then there is no expected payoff for the low-risk behavior of being a good student, whereas the high-risk action becomes more attractive because at least there is a *possibility* of a positive outcome (ie impressing chix0rs/boiz and/or mr f0zi himself with yr devil-may-care attitude)

i am sure you can make a similar argument to show that if yr young stick-up-kid is habituated to gun violence (several parents, male relatives, friends already dead by age 21) and sees it as a likely outcome for their life story NO MATTER WHAT (because they grew up in a dangerous neighborhood) then the housewife cowering in the bathroom with a 357 is very little dis-incentive indeed

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:25 (seventeen years ago) link

i clicked on this by mistake but after the college season ends there are the occasional saturday games as well.

― chicago kevin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:26 (seventeen years ago) link

What are criminals afraid of? Burglar alarms? Dogs? Nope. They're afraid of some housewife in a bathrobe with a loaded and cocked .357.

My father scared off a burglar with a knife.

John Justen and I scared off a burglar by waking up.

Plus what moonship just posted.

I think the mindset of the criminal (or potential criminal) and the subsequent motivations and incentives are a little more complicated then as posited in your argument. If guns scared off criminals (or potential criminals), then armed nogoodniks would probably spend less time shooting at each other and more time pointing the gun at us unarmed folk.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:37 (seventeen years ago) link

my anecdotal story which i'll drag out here is my student who was shot on christmas day in the arm and hand. he was hanging out on the street with some buddies, a dude comes out of his house and sees that his car has been tagged in his driveway, accosts the pack of 16-year-olds in the street. the teenagers tell the dude (who is 25, i think) to go smoke a cock. he goes inside and comes out like two hours later with a revolver and starts blasting away at the teens. the guy is fine (he doesn't hang out on the street anymore and won't play football for a months yet) but it could've easily ended up in "4 teenagers dead" bernard goetz type horror.

i'm not sure what my story illustrates, except that the 25 year old dude is going to be in jail for a while (he was caught fleeing to mexico) and that it obviously shows very poor decision-making skills on his part - "i am pissed about my car being damaged, so i think i will go to prison for several years"

i think having access to concealable handguns probably exacerbates this poor decision-making problem in a way that access to bolt-action hunting rifles doesn't, so i think we could also exercise some nuance when we talk about gun control.

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:41 (seventeen years ago) link

OH and this is another the interesting anecdote: three weeks later on a friday night a 15 year old was shot and killed in the street. the cousin of the SHOOTER was caught at his high school (which is in our neighborhood) with a handgun in his backpack on monday - he had brought the gun to school for HIS OWN protection, since he was fearing retaliation.

interstingly enough, in this case, roger's attitude of

Shooting back - and effectively neutralizing a threat - DOES stop someone shooting at you.

-- Manalishi, Monday, April 16, 2007 6:54 PM (Yesterday)

leads to MORE CRIME in this instance (unless what, we make it legal for 9th graders to carry handguns to school?)

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:46 (seventeen years ago) link

~~then~~ than

plus a bunch of other illiterate shit

GAH

(xpost to me)

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:52 (seventeen years ago) link

geez don't skip a beat or anything, NRA-lobby whore.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tech_gun_control

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:10 (seventeen years ago) link

v4h1d u rock

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:35 (seventeen years ago) link

cosign

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:39 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah vahid is killing it basically

i forget who said this, but:

can we just agree that some people think hunting is barbaric and unnecessary

these people are just wrong, frankly. depends on the species. there's no danger of environmental damage or self-harming populations with say black rhino or american buffalo, but deer? yeah, there is.

― gff, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:42 (seventeen years ago) link

The problem we run into with hunting is that a lot of gun control advocates see a pretty clear line between hunting weapons and people-killing weapons -- as insinuated just upthread. (I don't even consider myself a big gun control advocate, and I don't know a ton about hunting, but I'm fairly confident that no one's hunting elk with semi-automatic handguns and such.) So you wind up with a debate where some people are comfortable with government deciding which guns go in which category, and some people are very uncomfortable with how those distinctions might be made. (Part of why the NRA seems totally nuts to most people is that it's inevitably their mission to support practically ANY kind of arms, even insane ones, on principle -- kinda the equivalent of the ACLU looking bad for defending NAMBLA or whoever.)

Two things here that I have to admit bug me. One is the way that any time someone expresses concern about the availability of powerful weapons, there's this belligerent assumption that they're advocating gun control; I think there's room to fret about psychos having access to guns without necessarily wanting to legislate a gun-free society. Another is all the lame "you pussy city-dwellers" rhetoric that crops up, insinuating that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with guns is either a weakling or ignorant of the hard facts of life: I understand the reasonable impulses that lead to this, but we should mostly spot them all kinda bullshit. I said on the other thread that I don't know a ton about guns and don't really want to, and Manalishi sarcastically urged me to "remain ignorant": and yes, it's true, I hope that I and all my loved ones never experience being on either end of a gun. I would think people who support guns as a form of crime prevention would hope the same thing, really -- sort of the same way I'm glad there are oncologists in the world but hope never to have to see much of them professionally.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:12 (seventeen years ago) link

insinuating that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with guns is either a weakling or ignorant of the hard facts of life

Thing is, I totally cop to both of those charges, and I'm mostly OK with it.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

pussy

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

One of the things I'm curious about, incidentally, is how much people's ideas about guns relate to how much they trust other people to use them wisely. The life-and-death stakes of a gun are a lot higher than most of the other objects non-professional people can be licensed to use (cars seem like the only competition), and I'll admit flat-out that I have trouble trusting a lot of people to hold that power; that doesn't mean I want to outlaw them, just that I'm uncomfortable with the situation.

And that's not just about lack of familiarity: I went to a high school where we got the first day of hunting season off, and I've spent weeks in a third-world country where groups of guys with AK-47s jump into the back of your truck and tell you to drive them somewhere. But I've also gone to the funeral of a kid who got shot in the face by a friend who said "hahaha it's not loaded," and no matter how much gun-friendly folks say "c'mon, basic gun safety, it's the parents' fault for not securing the gun better," we just come back to that original trust issue: how much do we trust people on this? And as far as the law goes, at what point of accident, murder, or death do we say there are legitimate public-health reasons to act? (Keeping in mind that there are countless objects and substances NOT covered by the 2nd amendment where the government doesn't even begin to defer to people's good judgment -- I'd much rather be in a bar where everyone had unprescribed Ambien in his pockets than one where everyone had a concealed weapon.)

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:29 (seventeen years ago) link

You worried about killing machines ended up in the wrong hands. Don't worry about guns, let's raise the driving age to 25, that's what I say.

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Best. Logic. Ever.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:35 (seventeen years ago) link

cars aren't a great comparison, are they? unlike guns, their primary purpose isn't to be lethal.

but yeh, i suppose the fact i'm a world-weary cynic who thinks an awful lot of people are very fucking stupid means i'd be happier if i thought these people weren't going around packing heat.

still, i'm cheered by the fact that, of the pro-gun posters on this thread, only manalishi conforms to the penis-waving stereotype. i've very much enjoyed reading milo and river wolf's comments: i still can't imagine any situation in which i'm ever going to believe private gun ownership is anything other than a social aberration, but their arguments have, if nothing else, made me think about the issue.

shakey mo OTM, really. we just have to hope for the best.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:44 (seventeen years ago) link

cars aren't a great comparison, are they? unlike guns, their primary purpose isn't to be lethal.

lol, come to Boston sometime

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:50 (seventeen years ago) link

zing zang bing bang

but yeah, guns are purpose built to kill things. comparing them to things used to move other things/people around doesn't REALLY fly.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha, dudes, I said cars were the only competition just so no one could come along and say "cars are really dangerous too and we totally trust people with them."

Ha, I was also going to point out that car deaths have gotta be like 98% accidental, probably because most of the ways you can actively try to kill someone with a car would totally screw up your ride. (This is like that whole Chris Rock "just make the bullets really expensive" thing.) Nobody weilds a car in anger! I mean, hunting aside, I'd be interested to magically get statistics on how often guns are weilded in response to a legitimate crime threat versus how often they're pulled out in arguments, to threaten people, for revenge, etc. (Obviously it'd be impossible to separate "serious argument" from "legitimate threat," but the difficulty of separating those things is precisely why I worry about people's judgment on this front!)

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:04 (seventeen years ago) link

"Mom, Dad, I'm taking Becky to the movies tonight. Can I borrow the gun?"

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:04 (seventeen years ago) link

vroom vroom!

http://pluto.fcla.edu/%7Efcldem/pics/2003/canada/Newfoundland_030609/MVC-892S.JPG

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:07 (seventeen years ago) link

"It depends what movie."

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:07 (seventeen years ago) link

"As long as you don't go up to Stake-Out Point."

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link

This is like that whole Chris Rock "just make the bullets really expensive" thing

chris rock? wasn't it daniel moynihan who pushed a federal 10000% tax on hollow-point ammo?

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link

RIP danny boy

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=980CE3DC1F3CF937A35752C1A965958260

Mike Jordan, manager of marketing technical services for the Winchester Ammunition Division of the Olin Corporation, said, "I wish the Congress people would attack crime as zealously as they do guns and ammunition."

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:20 (seventeen years ago) link

The Chris Rock reference is in "Bring The Pain".

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:20 (seventeen years ago) link

The thing I used to dwell on, back when John Lott was in my orbit, was the weirdness of how much the Goetzification of society he advocates would actually lead to a bunch of things conservatives could love (not least of which being that young minority men would have to start wearing bow ties everywhere and steering clear of all middle-aged white people after 10pm). And just think how it would clear up the courts to have all potential subjects dead!

xpost Ha, I don't remember that from Moynihan, just some Rock bit where he's like "if bullets cost $2,000 each, you'd have to think really hard about whether it was really worth killing someone!"

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:23 (seventeen years ago) link

young minority men would have to start wearing bow ties everywhere

http://www.islamfortoday.com/NOI_members.jpg

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh jeez I saw the remake of 12 Angry Men the other day.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

Maybe add a propellor beanie and keep having fake conversations about Maria Bartiromo, just to be sure.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:29 (seventeen years ago) link

haha i love that chris rock bit. and yeah, nabisco, the whole messing up yr ride thing is an argument i had to pull out against my roommate this morning. like, you COULD try and mow people down with yr car but eventually the thing just wouldn't go anymore

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Gun industry response also makes for a good reminder to us lefty gun-owners - no matter how much you want to 'support gun rights' (or want to keep shooting things) just remember that the people responsible for making them are, by and large, evil corporate douchebags with no real conscience.

― milo z, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 00:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, that always makes me feel bad about breweries and tobacco companies too.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 00:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Not that literature is good evidence in favor of gun control, but there's a very resonant bit in Billy Bathgate about how holding a gun actually makes you feel angry. True or not, having a gun makes you think a lot more about ways to use a gun, and I don' think that's a very good thing.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 02:25 (seventeen years ago) link

So does having a belt-sander.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 02:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Right. Your point?

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 02:51 (seventeen years ago) link

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