Kraftwerk

milt, if you get one, hook up your old pal Xerox

so, my gf won tickets and I'm going to TEE... :-D

Apparently VW hung onto 25% of the tickets, wtf

Hung onto? That's sponsorship. MoMa and Kraftwerk and VW must have agreed on that, so your wtf should be aimed at all parties.

Went last night. Very well done by the MOMA. Ticket pick up was easy, the room wasn't crowded in the least (could have fit at least 100 more folks in there, if they wanted.) Radio-Activity pasrt of the shwo was the highlight (naturally) and they followed it up with a nice lengthy version of Autobahn where, I think, they mixed things up a bit from the original. Trans Europe Express was a standout as well.

Even though it was a great event I can't help thinking that there will probably be an SNL skit making fun of these shows. The teutonic seriousness in which they were presented could easily be seen as comic by some.

sorta been done

http://www.popscreen.com/assets/thumbs/v/original/5661102ngO_o.jpg

Yeah but if any of the SNL writers were there they have some new material to work with.

The teutonic seriousness in which they were presented could easily be seen as comic by some.

yeah but Kraftwerk have always had a sly comic element to them. "The Robots" is really funny especially when the robots themselves appear onstage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD5P7RsC9TI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K2bdJb_ewY

Fred Armisen was there last night, so maybe!

One original member. This is like Wings performing the works of the Beatles, with Linda and Denny Laine squeezed into John and George's old Beatles suits.

i'd argue that Kraftwerk and the Beatles have kinda different aesthetics at play

At this point they're essentially a tribute band to themselves ... which could only really work with them. They are machines after all. I would bet Ralf has plans to have himself replaced in the band eventually.

I can deal with the absence of Bartos and Flur but it's really not the same without Schneider, who I always thought was the soul of Kraftwerk. That ghost of a half-smile that he always carried was synecdoche for the sly humour I referred to above.

Totally agree. Without Schneider it's not Kraftwerk. And Bartos and Flur are under-appreciated I think - after all, both were in the band for 15 years. Schneider and Hutter have done practically nothing without them.

that's basically OTM, it's always been about Hutter and Schneider for me, though I'm reasonably certain that Bartos is responsible for a lot of their more brilliant melodic stuff, hence why I don't think new music coming out of these guys is going to sound like their glory years

but in a performance...ehhh, no biggie

Yeah impression I got was that Techno Pop was really the last gasp, since Bartos wrote the catchy melodies. Once he was gone there's only increasing production values. What Ralf can manage now is to tour a greatest-hits show in perpetuity - which I think is a bit sad when you consider that there are tons of younger people who would love to write pop material in a Kraftwerk style. Ralf doesn't have to be the sole writer in the band (along with his manager). But this is all just hope since I would love to have a new record that's better than Soundtracks.

I say all this but I'm still really excited about soundboard from these leaking!

there are tons of younger people who would love to write pop material in a Kraftwerk style.

yes there are, and plenty of them have released stuff too, but IMO what Kraftwerk did at their peak isn't easy at all to replicate

Just saying that Ralf doesn't have to do it all himself. A vague hope really, I know it's impossible to capture some past glory

the other thing, which I'm sure has been discussed upthread, is that the departure of Bartos and Flur more or less coincided with their live sets losing the elements of improvisation that they used to have and basically becoming reproductions of the records. there are bootlegs from 1981 and earlier that veer far away from the studio versions. this would also coincide with the stage set being reduced to laptops/workstations rather than keyboards.

Flur was the techhead who was largely responsible for designing and constructing their studio gear and stage equipment. Apart from facilitating the recording of these albums, the aesthetic that he created is a massive part of the band's reputation.

I was never too comfortable with the post-1990 idea that Kraftwerk=Ralf, Florian and two goons in costumes but went along with it as the concerts were still good. But as decades passed by without almost nothing new creatively it became obvious that Kraftwerk were, and always will be, the four members from the classic line-up.

some great footage here (incl. the band dancing) and a recent interview with Flur:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3yRXCnQvL4

xxpost - this is a good point, and it's interesting that a lot of times, the mid-70s albums actually sound like a live band - Radioactivity, side two of Autobahn and chunks of TEE for example. But later they got stuck in the "robot"-schtick, which they really did not acquire till late in their career. But it excused a lot of things, such as replacing members, not playing live at concerts, and using machine-like "perfectionism" as an excuse for what was really procrastination or lack of creative inspiration over the last 25 years.

yeah, I feel like there's some revisionist history going on with these guys, but really, how concerned with music do you feel Ralf has been the last three decades? you've got Electric Cafe in 1986, a self-remix album in 1991, a single in 2000, Tour de France Soundtracks in 2003, then a live album in 2005. I mean I don't think Kraftwerk has really been a big priority for the guy for a while has it?

yep, cycling is what he really cares about these days

I'm really surprised at the universal boner regarding these shows. If they want to blow my mind ever again it would look something like Ralf playing (actually PLAYING) a keyboard, Florian on the flute and performing something (anything!) new. Accompanied with an excellent drummer. And wearing normal clothes.

those boners are justified - as "unexciting" as their live shows are, hearing the music played on those huge speakers w/ the video backdrops is really something

The music will always be good. But it was done better, decades ago. Here we have a 66 year old man on a stage squeezed into a luminous suit accompanied by three actors pretending to replicate the work of others. If people can convince themselves that it's worth it then who am I to contradict them. But really, it's bullshit.

At least when Sir Paul does his Beatles medleys, his band are not miming, nor are they dressed as the Beatles.

And it's really saying something when you cash-in on your legacy more cynically than Paul McCartney does.

a) kraftwerk > beatles
b) it sounds like you've never seen them live

The Beatles, no. Kraftwerk, yes.

as these live shows are literally designed as a museum piece, I think they're somewhat immune to most traditional forms of criticism

at the end of 1998 SF show at the Warfield, after the third encore, people applauded for nearly 15 minutes, pretty much at full blast; despite nearly everyone knowing that there was no more material for them to play, that there was no fourth encore available in the sequencer, people just stood there with all the lights on and cheered, even though they knew it would have been out of character for them to reappear for one bow. I don't ever expect to see an audience response that devoted on that scale ever again.

2004 show was markedly less amazing and diluted by Soundtracks songs, and you could kind of tell Florian was not as into it. and I do hear you; this is not even close they were when they were a genuine live band from 70-81, critical things have gone missing and it's not really true Kraftwerk without Florian. but the concept being presented here is beyond the individuals, so it's very difficult for me to feel too cynical about this

& from what I've seen of the moma / 2011 3D-era youtubes so far; the visuals have really come into their own with this tour, they were good in 98, but Stefan Pfaffe deserves to be one of the four guys onstage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwTpumtTGj0&feature=relmfu

and at risk of coming off as a completely undiscriminating fanboy, but I like aspects of the Hilpert-era retools; the breakdown at 3:34 is better than the Mix or the 2004 tour version of 'Radioactivity'. and you can tell it's Ralf playing the faux-Orchestron pad on the outro. I prefer the original, but for me it's a good mix of updating while staying intrinsic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=17fTsU2wYpA

Isn't Hilpert responsible for The Mix version also?

Well when I saw them the part that got the most applause was when the robots came out. I see where you're coming from everything but recent Kraftwerk performances aren't really about the people in the band. I mean, it's not even clear what any of them actually do anymore.

If we're complimenting the new lineup, let me just point out that it really is incredible what they've done to "Musique Nonstop" and the "Tour de France Etapes", which sound way better live now than they ever did on the albums.

These full album shows feel like the end of the line for them as a live band. It's hard to see where they'll go after this. If they go back to sporadically doing greatest-hits sets afterwards I can't see the enthusiasm being very high. Although I'd definitely go if there was a (highly unlikely) mass hatchet burying and we got a tour from Hütter/Schneider/Flür/Bartos. And it would probably sound exactly the same as the sets they're playing now.

or, surprise 9th show debuting new album

what's the actual beef between ralf und florian anyway?

as far as I know, Florian just got bored with it all? (plus, he's nearing retirement age) Bartos left for the same reasons (basically, slow work ethic). I can see those two rejoining. Flur seems to have left under more dubious circumstances.

>Isn't Hilpert responsible for The Mix version also?

yes, but they keep tweaking it: in '98 they played the Mix version, in '04 they reverted to a version closer to the original studio arrangement but still with the Sellafield samples, and this '12 version adds a new dubby breakdown to the '04 take

new visuals for Metal On Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruWSEEWWFEw&feature=relmfu

or, surprise 9th show debuting new album

I like the idea of Kraftwerk going on the road to test out new material. Ralf: "We're just doing it to iron out the kinks lads, see how the audience responds, feel out what works and what doesn't. If we get really stuck we'll stick in a few covers. Louie Louie anyone?"

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of their robots used to hold a calculator up to its teeth, 'playing' it Hendrix style. Although I may have just imagined it.

I can testify that Florian played the calculator behind his head Hendrix style on The Mix tour in 1991.

Flur left for more or less the same reasons as Bartos: fuck all was happening. But he got pretty bitter about the subsequent redefinition of Kraftwerk=Ralf+Florian+ two grannies on bongos. His book has some interesting moments but gets pretty boring. Should have been seriously edited to omit his post-Kraftwerk career and eliminate some of the bitterness.

Gonna start by replying a bit to everything (the username everything, not, like, everything) here, and then waffle drunkenly off into space (so everything, this is not really a reply to your post, even if I use it as a launching pad):

Flur was the techhead who was largely responsible for designing and constructing their studio gear and stage equipment. Apart from facilitating the recording of these albums, the aesthetic that he created is a massive part of the band's reputation.

Yeah, there is a thing here. In the same vein, Ralf & Florian were early in seriously ~thinking~ and ~working~ with sound as an abstract scientific object (eg not necessarily tied to known instruments) for popular usage (which eg contemporary-composition people didn't at the time coz that would obv be totalitarian /adorno). It's like, early days of a technology, what do you do if you have a deep understanding of the scientific acoustical domain? Experiment a bit (which they did), release something (which they did), and plus obv also get some engineering whizkid who astound you by soldering wires to your drumsticks and covering your drums with tinfoil, thus taking it from interesting to awesome.

But the Kraftwerk conundrum/problem: Once the world went from analogue to digital, they *became* like everyone else. This was, I'm afraid, inevitable on principle, at least seen from now. Given that music/media is delivered digitally to consumers, there is -- on principle at least -- *no way* that superior analogue soundcraft can trump trivial programming skills. To be a pest: *anyone* can trivially write a computer programme to reproduce the contents of an analoguely generated but digitally distributed .wav file; even the greatest synthesizer/woodwind/tinfoilengineer can't craft machinery to reproduce any digital sound thrown at them. Yah, I'm close to being unreasonably tautological here I know, but still.

Innovation, and even more importantly creativity, was shifted into the abstract domain of algorithms rather than mechanics to manipulate sound. (I'll take for granted that stuff like "making catchy tunes" is pretty much constant through time). But given their undoubted expertise, why could not Kraftwerk stay at the forefront of this? Because computers (ie the haha means of production) became cheap. A major reason KW were at the forefront for many many years was that their shit was *fucking expensive*.

Right, back to everything:

I was never too comfortable with the post-1990 idea that Kraftwerk=Ralf, Florian and two goons in costumes but went along with it as the concerts were still good. But as decades passed by without almost nothing new creatively it became obvious that Kraftwerk were, and always will be, the four members from the classic line-up.

The Big Four is my mental picture of Kraftwerk. I love the phrase "two goons in costumes", it is fair. After the age of Karl and Wolfgang, Florian was kinda my man left in the group due to his wicked smile at underleg pocket calculator shenanigans. I'm thinking I should go back some day and listen to pre-Autobahn KW, but it seems I never do. Even though "three goons in costumes" seems even worse, I urge anyone to continue posting those current youtubes of the MOMA stuff, I can't kick it completely it seems... :)

(I guess another thing about KW and the discussion above is that I've really, really never seen them in my head as being a "live band". But then, I never do that about any band actually -- I'm somewhat Geirish here probably, feeling live performances are somehow poor simulacra of the real thing ie recorded sound which is the Only Thing That Counts haha.)

I am down for gabbing about this all day (and want to apologize to everything for challenging him about not seeing them live, it's clear you're a pretty devoted student of the history)

I think a great deal of the criticism being levelled at them is due to the fact that in the 70's, they actually were a particularly incredible live band. Occasional tracks would use a rhythm box, a simple sequencer, or a brief vocodered pre-recording, but frequently every single sound you heard was hand-triggered. Kraftwerk challenged the idea of this music being 'studio-only' every time they toured, and like any live band you can hear them breaking in versions of the next album's material on each tour.

So I can totally relate to the disappointment of Everything at the current museum incarnation, even if I myself think it's fascinating

Oh everything, the Flür book: It is chock-full of unseemly griping, but I'd recommend it to any KW fan for History, ifn't anything else.

A favourite part (I paraphrase obv, and also it's been years since I read it): "and after the release of this record released in the middle of the seventies, we had a party where there was champagne and dancing and fun and a sex movie shown by the miracle of super-8 on the wall in the bathroom in the hotel room."

Apparently about 30 years later, the *real* Kraftwerk (ie Ralf) tried to EXPURGATE the sex movie bit from the book by LAWYERS bcz porn was then extremely unpoliticallycorrect. Can't have that haha!

xpost

as far as the 'liveness' of the current incarnation, here's a good 2005 youtube of 'Music Non Stop' taken from a balcony, zooming in on each of their consoles to show what their hands are doing during each of their solos. that blip at 0:05, shockingly improvised

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpilbvC5sgI

those were the days:

http://www.currybet.net/images/blog2008/20080511_old-school-live.jpg