New York City is for sellouts

I know which one is the sad picture...I used to go up there like at least once a week to just stare at everything. Actually, two pix were taken from there: the view of the bridges and the one straight down on the city.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 14:20 (twenty years ago) link

Wait, actually, gabbneb, that's not yr car is it? I'm sorry I wrote on it if that's the sad pic.

;)

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 14:21 (twenty years ago) link

i work in the black building on the right, in the pic going straight down onto church st

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 8 August 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link

Why move to NYC and not anywhere else in the world? Is there anything left that's special or unique about NYC that doesn't exist in any other large US city?

Yes. I have no idea what. Further study is required.

it's pretty much our platonic ideal of 'the city;' anywhere else is just 'a city.'

Ding ding ding! (though see also London)

I'll say this, though. I certainly wish fuckin' less people would move here and leave the city for those snobby shits like myself who were actually born here, goddammit!

Nothing good ever came of an enterprise of entirely NY-born humans.

Ned:
To be fair, I've found perfect serenity more than once in the middle of Manhattan, and not in Central Park even.

http://www.demotelco.com/fb/photo/resources/217114166216105612301474000001/ned.jpg?tw=450&th=450

OK let's move to Alabama immediately.

Sellout.

People move to NYC because they imagine that it has a constant stream of the new and interesting. This is true, because the people that come to see it, bring it.

Obviously, the chips on the shoulders of NYCers born and bred are nothing compared to those of people who moved there.

Sinatra got it slightly wrong: Once you make yourself there, you can take yourself anywhere. For people that are still cookie dough, it's the hottest oven. Obviously this is mass delusion, but so is the United States of America.

(I had to rewrite this, as the first time I was using 'here' instead of 'there').

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:00 (twenty years ago) link

I like the Irish definition of serenity. (That was listening to Slowdive, of course.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:01 (twenty years ago) link

Good stuff, Andrew.

Also, milo is OTM here: It's where you dream of moving when you're outside the cultural norm of your area (especially as a teenager). Nightlife, record stores, shopping, interesting people, adventure, etc. Basically a "get the fuck up and out" ideal.

And the reality of both is far less exciting than the fantasy.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:02 (twenty years ago) link

OLP, as they say. "gabbneb" and "car" do not belong in the same sentence.

(I'm a little sleepy, so this will be vague - I did miss NA's intention on this thread a bit, but I think he's missing the answer to his question that's implicated in NYC'ers answers to what they imagine the question to be. certainly there are people who move here for a fantasy, and find it or not, and there will be disillusionment for those who don't. but in fact, the reality for many people is better than the fantasy, and perhaps there are people who move here who have realistic, instead of fantastic, notions of what the city is like. therefore for many, whether native or non, NYC isn't overrated because they never rated it on to anything but its own terms. the "fantasy" in fact is perhaps largely invented by people *outside* of New York. people who live here may have trouble explaining it to non-NYCers because they don't have the same reference points. like, explain to me why Richmond is great (though I gather that's not necessarily the sentiment) - I'm not necessarily going to understand very well (though I'm willing to believe it). the backlash against NYC may just have to do with the number and volume of its flacks. then again, NA may be right about why people move here and we're ignoring his question, though it may be self-explanatory. or does the question have less to do with NYC than why *other* cities don't have the same allure? how many people really choose between cities to live in? and are they choosing between the cities themselves or the larger regions that they are found in (i.e. Coast v. Center, East v. West, South v. Middle v. North)?)

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

does the question have less to do with NYC than why *other* cities don't have the same allure?

The phrasing of that raises my hackles, though I see your larger point. Might it be more accurate to say that other places have their own allure than simply investing NYC with something untouchable and unique?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

Ned, whether or not it "raises your hackles" it's an accurate assessment of the situation. AGAIN by pointing out that other cities don't have the "same allure" it is not by default denigrating your city of choice.

I really hate discussing locale with you, though. No offense or anything but like I said you just seem to come in to these threads to play devil's advocate against whatever is being agreed to about the goodness of an area.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:34 (twenty years ago) link

If that's the case I will apologize and rethink (and I did openly use the 'devil's advocate' above myself, since I'm interested in perceptions in general of many different things, not just locale). I think we're more in agreement than might be thought, but it's how we're discussing it (or the terms used?) that causes the conflict. If anything this is reminding me of the popism/rockism endless debates on this board only applied to place -- is the perception (as opposed to the reality and/or individual experience) of NYC as the four-piece guitar band of cities? ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

I was imprecise. It should have asked why outsiders don't confer the same allure on other cities, which premise was posited in the question. LA and perhaps other parts of OC are highly alluring to me (but I'm not sure I'd want to live there ;-))

However, I do think NYC has something unique (as a matter of reality, not fantasy) that is particularly alluring to people who wish to live in a large city and that perhaps can't be found or is not imagined to be found anywhere else (except maybe London, Hong Kong, etc.). It might not be alluring to people who don't wish to live in a large city, or to people who wish to live in a large metropolitan area without a dense, residential, monumental core and active sidewalk culture.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:45 (twenty years ago) link

The city is of its own kind and has its own allure, just as other cities and people have theirs. It is mentalist to think that millions of New Yorkers like and or would like the exact same thing about New York, just as it it would be silly to say to someone, upon being shown a picture of his girlfriend, "Nah, I could show you a photo of mine too, what does that prove?" Everyone likes something different. I mean, it's like saying Venice is better than New York because New York has no gondolas.

DID YOU KNOW that the horse-drawn hansom cabs have rate signs like in taxicabs: " $34.00 for the first 1/2 hour or part thereof, $11.00 for each additional 1/4 hour"? I wonder how these rates stack up against those from Henry James' or Wharton's day.

― felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:04 (twenty years ago) link

NYC as the four-piece guitar band of cities? ;-)

If suburban mall culture = teen pop, do tourists gravitate towards Times Square because it's the least guitarbandlike place in NYC?

― The Four Singing Beatles (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:06 (twenty years ago) link

And also I wonder whether the hansoms will go through the McDonald's clipclop-thru windows.

― felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:07 (twenty years ago) link

Felicity is indeed wise. :-) I think...I think what it might boil down to is a distinction between someone who says that NYC (or for that matter any other city) has 'everything' and that it has 'everything I need at present.'

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:11 (twenty years ago) link

Is there anything left that's special or unique about NYC that doesn't exist in any other large US city?

NA this totally depends on what you mean by 'large'. I've felt a similar level of excitement and potential in LA and SF as I did in NY (when visiting; I've never lived in any of these). Both of these cities also have their own strong moving-to mythologies. The only other US cities that can compare to NY in size are Chicago and maybe sorta Boston. If by large you mean Pittsburgh, Seattle or Denver, then yes, NY has a much greater selection of the unique and special. If you're a person who's interested in urbanity, and all the diversity and cultural stuff that comes with it, you don't really want to move to Seattle or Portland, despite the fact that they're officially cities (trust me).

― chester (synkro), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:20 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think NYC has everything at all. There are things that are important to me that I either can't find here at all or can only be found in parts of the city I go to very rarely. It does, however, have the greatest combination of things I want.

New York has no gondolas

but it does!

http://www.rioc.com/tram.gif

xp: chester - what do you mean by large? surely not geography. the LA metro area has more people than does the NY, I think, and also greater density which is bizarre. maybe they count the bodies of water in NY? however, I'm NYC-born and bred and adore Seattle, though admittedly not for its 'urbanity'.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:32 (twenty years ago) link

All this notion that NYC is the centre of everything and self-evidently the greatest and most exciting place and why would anyone want to live anywhere else shit is very annoying - that's LONDON, people, NYC is merely a substitute.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:36 (twenty years ago) link

If you're European or philic, sure.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:37 (twenty years ago) link

I chose Cleveland much in the same way felicity chose NY. It's located halfway between my second and third favorite cities (Toledo and Erie, Pa).

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:39 (twenty years ago) link

Gabbneb: by 'large' I meant 'whoa, this is so much bigger and more exciting and diverse than Seattle, where I grew up.' Those cities have impressed me with their size; Denver, Phoenix, and other mid-size US cities haven't, they've had that same comfortable feeling I was used to. Subjective, obv, but I was really asking NA what he meant by 'large'.

― chester (synkro), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:44 (twenty years ago) link

I wonder how these rates stack up against those from Henry James' or Wharton's day.

I can tell you. I just received a book in the mail from my gradmaother, who was cleaning out a bunch of books and found "The Real New York," a personal guide on shops and ting, written by a lady reporter in 1933. By 1933 there were only 6 hansom cabs left in the city and they congregated exactly where they congregate now, across from the Plaza Hotel at the corner of 59th and 5th Ave. The price was $3 (length of ride unspecified), which this reporter says had been the going rate for at least 30 years, despite the fact the stable fees had increased five-fold. This book is so great, she says you can go to any basement-floor apartment on 47th St west of sixth ave, ring the buzzer, and when the tiny window bangs open and a pair of beady eyes present themselves you say casually that you were "there last night with Johnny Walker." She says this code works everywhere, even downtown. I'm gonna have to try that sometime.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:58 (twenty years ago) link

The only other US cities that can compare to NY in size are Chicago and maybe sorta Boston

Philadelphia is much, much bigger than Boston. So is Phoenix.

See how mythologies work?

That book sounds great, Tracer!

― felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:01 (twenty years ago) link

It's expensive, it's filthy, and it's a pain in the ass to live in. It's also really big and twice as dense as any other city in the U.S.

If you can't deal/think it's overrated/like your city so much better, just don't come. We won't miss you and frankly rents are too high already. 'nuff said.

― Octothorpe (Octothorpe), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

haha Boston is the only city I mentioned I haven't been to.

― chester (synkro), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:20 (twenty years ago) link

I can't believe Ally posted a photo of the Essex/Delancey subway station. It's the bane of my JMZ-riding existence. It's a stank pit-hole of despair.

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:27 (twenty years ago) link

Everything's gonna be ok, Octo.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:30 (twenty years ago) link

Phil, I sat on the floor of that subway station and drew a picture of Rufus Wainwright the night I took that photograph. I think I was trying to photograph a rat that was scurrying comically across the platform but unfortunately it was not to be seen.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:31 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/20010629/iowa2.jpg

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:44 (twenty years ago) link

more!

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:49 (twenty years ago) link

felicity it is superb!! She talks about the big stuff of course—the Italian place where Caruso dined, Lindy's, Sardi's, etc and other things that were apparently big enough to be instantly recognizeable to her readers but have lost any meaning for anyone (names of society people, especially), but she also talks about little things, like her favorite lavendar salesman (whose cry of "sweeeet lavendar for saaale!!" was heard for blocks around his stall on 2nd ave), a place to buy wigs, a woolworth's lunch counter presided over by a maitre'd in tails and white gloves where you could get duck a l'orange, and tons of places where the actors hung out, especially a Mexican place (NOT owned by Mexicans: Ned it is a long tradition!!) with "the only enchiladas in New York"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:50 (twenty years ago) link

j0hn wins

again

(xpost)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

This seems like such an America centred argument. (I don't mean this negatively in any way) I'm just wondering whether there's any difference between someone in, say, Canada deciding to move to NYC and someone from, say, Burlington, VT. If NYC's mystique is based on some mythologized American ideal of the city, are folks from other places in the world equally affected? (Martin's comment about London got me thinking)

Also, in terms of multiculturalism, Toronto's got everyone beat. 56 different ethnic groups speaking 80 different languages--the most diverse city in the world. (I used to work for Ontario tourism)

― cybele (cybele), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:16 (twenty years ago) link

I find it hard to believe that Toronto is more diverse than Sioux City!

(NOTE: The preceeding might be a lie.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:18 (twenty years ago) link

Judging people's life choices: dud
Experiencing normal human emotions when your friends move away: classic

― felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:37 (twenty years ago) link

Felicity, this isn't about my friends, really. I'm not judging their life choices. I acknowledged in my opening thread that a lot of what I think and feel about their reasons for moving is totally irrational and cynical. Confusion and even a little bit of anger are normal human emotions when your friends are moving away from you. Of course I am sad that they are leaving as well as excited for them, but that didn't really seem relevant to the question I was trying to ask with the thread. And I don't think judging people's life choices is a dud, it's pretty much unavoidable. But I'm keeping my feelings to myself and expressing only "normal human emotions" to them, so don't worry about my friends.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link

Selling out is classic anyway though.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:45 (twenty years ago) link

Ha ha, I just realized that I totally contradicted myself. Awesome. I meant the stuff at the end about judging life choices, not the part at the beginning when I say I'm not judging them.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

Toronto's got everyone beat

Taking Sides: West Nile v. SARS

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:49 (twenty years ago) link

But I'm keeping my feelings to myself and expressing only "normal human emotions" to them, so don't worry about my friends.

I reserve the right to spend a lot of time worrying about NA's friends

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

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