sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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it's true, I am too stupid to understand rock criticism. This is entirely my own fault, stemming from my unwillingness to spend the necessary brainpower on interpreting the self-absorbed in-jokes of writers with an overinflated sense of their inherent aesthetic worth.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago) link

Blount, are you trying to argue for the intellectual capabilities of Harold Reynolds?

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago) link

What about jokes about finding the Pope in the pizza? Because, honestly, I can't speak for Greil, but when Father Guido Sarducci used to do that, it didn't crack me up at all! (Though, ok, I think I might have put a piece of wax paper up the TV screen ONCE, maybe...)

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

i mean could someone explain why xgau et. al should ignore all the people who do get them in favor of the "casual" readers who don't get them and have a MILLION other writers writing in the 'regurgitate the presskit plz' style they demand?

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

harold reynolds would be accused of being too 'academic' by the rules of this thread stence! (and don't even mention mccarver)

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

Don't you hate it when writers try and show off by using all those fancy "words" that they know.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

actually, to be serious for a second, this "dumb-it-down" thing is a total strawman. You can actively dislike Christgau's writing (and his occasional obtuseness) without wanting reviews to read like press releases.

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty years ago) link

Anyway, how, exactly, are jokes about the Pope's penis size "in jokes"? I've never even been to the Vatican, and I stopped going to church in ninth grade! (And Bob, I believe, is a Unitarian!!)

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty years ago) link

(ps that Yes piece is completely undreadable).

hey! you dropped your spoon!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty years ago) link

Here was maybe my favorite line in the Yes piece:

"...the mighty riff machine YES went into overdrive with riffs like “Owner of a Lonely Heart,” where Trevor Rabin took a flare gun and burned the corrupt apartheid state to the ground!"

The thing is, I had never really noticed that "Smoke on the Water" and "Owner of a Lonely Heart" have essentially the same riff! So the piece taught me something, as well as making me chuckle.

Broheems (diamond), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty years ago) link

I mean, I don't find much worth in Christgau but not 'cause he's "difficult" or whatever. There are other rock writers who are as difficult (if not more so) whose writing I like better (Meltzer comes to mind first and foremost).

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty years ago) link

stence i know you can - but that ain't happening here! it's all 'writers MUST appeal to the 'casual' reader' garbage!

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty years ago) link

well I may not be a "casual reader" but I will admit that Xgau's obfuscations bug me in a way that Meltzer's or dave q's don't.

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

it's funny how self-righteous rock critics are when the value of their work is questioned.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:45 (twenty years ago) link

it's all 'writers MUST appeal to the 'casual' reader' garbage!

actually, i think it was you guys (Chuck, Blount, et al.) who made the shift from reader to "casual reader." it does make your points easier to defend. also, if i remember correctly, the guy who started the thread stated he was a regular reader of Xgau's.

BanjoMania (Brilhante), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:50 (twenty years ago) link

it's funny how self-righteous rock critics are when the value of their work is questioned.


well, it's amazing how dunderheaded some people can be. (look it up)

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

Dave Q Yes piece = genius beyond description. It's *flow,* is what it is -- the jokes so easily form this larger pattern, if you will. It IS performance but it still also talks about the music.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

for the remainder of the thread people should strictly use archaic words, terms and phrases

BanjoMania (Brilhante), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

I like to mentally substitute the content of each of Chuck's posts with "MY CREW IS WILD NICE!"

Al (sitcom), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago) link

I think there's a difference between insisting that all writers appeal to the "casual reader" (an obvious impossibility) and arguing that writers have a responsibility not to crawl up their own asses being willfully obscure. But my POVs been misconstrued from the start, at this point I'm just watchin the sparks fly since obviously none of us are going to convince each other.

So let's keep those snappy putdowns coming! After all, that's the apex of music criticism for most writers.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:53 (twenty years ago) link

also, I will try to use bigger words and make less sense from now on, in an effort to fit in with the established ILM critical aesthetic.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:54 (twenty years ago) link

I shouldn't have read this thread.

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago) link

the guy who started the thread stated he was a regular reader of Xgau's.

That's me. And I am! I actually like the guy's writing! Chuck's though...peeee-ewe!

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

heh.

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:10 (twenty years ago) link

matos i know the blondie thing has been explicated on this thread but we've established, i think, that numerous people were not aware that christgau was referencing some lyrics, and therefore didn't know how to interpret the "review".

xgau often has nice little bits of critical observation in his reviews; but on other occasions it seems like once you've figured out the pun (and there are sometimes impediments to even doing that; a grammatical error here, a lack of context there), there's no further insight to be gleaned. that's no mortal sin; people are obviously enjoying his writing just the same. but it's not what i look for in a critic.

to cite an example of a critic whose writing can be impossibly dense, even obscure on occasion, and yet full of revelations and pointed observations, see manny farber.

i think my criticisms of xgau have been pretty mild, so i'm a bit bewildered by the vehemence of some responses here. i don't know what engenders this wolf pack defensiveness re rock criticism that i sometimes perceive.

amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:16 (twenty years ago) link

i don't know what
engenders this wolf pack defensiveness re rock criticism that i sometimes perceive.


could have something to do with all the rock critics lying around.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago) link

shut up scott you WOULD say that, you're one of them! fucker.

Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, scott, but it's the VEHEMENCE of the reaction, not the reaction itself, that i was wondering about

amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:25 (twenty years ago) link

Maybe it has something to do with brilliant and highly informed observations like "it's the contemporary practice of rock criticism that i find wanting"? Just a thought....

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

I dunno, I've seen worse on ILM. And some people were looking for a fight. And Chuck takes what he does at the paper really seriously. Just in case some people missed that. (it ain't all pope dick jokes you know)

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago) link

see, there he goes again. he's like a pitbull in a skort.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:33 (twenty years ago) link

Or maybe it has something to do with this dumbing down to brain-dead spoonfeedery devoid of personality and wit you guys are apparently so fond of being EXACTLY the direction that "the contemporary practice of rock criticsm" has been HEADING in the past several years?

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:38 (twenty years ago) link

What is there not to get regarding the Yes piece? Seems pretty easy to understand to me. I don't even want to go into the whole xgau debacle -- at this point it has been debated enough.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:39 (twenty years ago) link

Woof woof. Snarl. Grrrrr....

Actually, I think I've been fairly UN-vehement today, at least compared to yesterday, at least until my most recent post. Oh well!

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:39 (twenty years ago) link

Why is everything always so black and white with you, Chuck? You don't think there's any middle ground between regurgitating press kits and writing incomprehensible gibberish like Queen's Yes piece? Cuz I think there is.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:40 (twenty years ago) link

"incomprehensible"

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:40 (twenty years ago) link

"I'm too lazy to write an actual post"

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

"You don't think there's any middle ground between regurgitating press kits and writing incomprehensible gibberish like Queen's Yes piece? Cuz I think there is."

You don't say?? Coulda fooled me, Shakey -- every piece in the Voice music section I edit reads EXACTLY like that Queen piece (which I, uh, comprehended and loved, though I did not myself edit or run it)! That's my rule: If you don't write like Dave Queen, don't even think of pitching me ideas! (And that goes double for all you jazz critics!)

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

With EDR, of course. Exactly what wasn't comprehensible about it, Shakey Mo -- that is, if you're not too lazy yourself to go into some detail.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

I guess I could go back and take a look at it, for argument's sake. Hold on and let me go find it...

(I assume Chuck's being sarcastic, since I don't read the Voice - I live in SF why would I bother...)

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:51 (twenty years ago) link

Exactly! I posted "What is there not to get regarding the Yes piece?" and Shakey Mo didn't exactly provide any answers.

x-post

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:52 (twenty years ago) link

I thought there was a thread about the Yes piece but I'm not seeing it...?

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago) link

Also, I didn't know you were addressing me specifically Diablo, I'm not the only one who cited that piece.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago) link

Thread.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 18:56 (twenty years ago) link

thanks Ned - I'm goin to lunch, will go over this when I get back in an hour.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not the only one who cited that piece.

Well, you were the one to bring it up so I was curious.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 19:02 (twenty years ago) link

" I don't read the Voice - I live in SF why would I bother...)"

Well, that explains a lot, Shakey -- if I didn't read the Voice music section, I'd under-rate the current state of rock criticism, too!

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 19:40 (twenty years ago) link

I have no problem with that Yes piece. But if Christgau had written it, he wouldn't have included the parantheticals. And had I have been confused, I would have been berated for demanding spoonfeedery!

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago) link

I find it curious that a rock fan would equate "obscurity" with "elitism" when some of the most popular (even populistically popular) rock songs of all time have lines that are incomprehensible, solipsistic, cryptic, inaudible or mumbled.

(Hell, I don't think I know what some of my favorite songs are "supposed to" mean.)

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:08 (twenty years ago) link

"Thirty-six true summers ago"

What is a "true summer"? Why is there a distinction being drawn at all between a "true summer" and yr regular old summer?

"Jon Andersen tired of being a milkman"

This sounds like a fabrication meant as a joke, except I don't understand why it should be funny. Unless Dave Q thinks it's clever to say "this is the truth!" before telling an obvious lie. Which doesn't seem very clever to me.

"he decided to combine the Mars Volta with the Outfield"

Okay, so he's fucking with the timeline here (tho I dunno who the Outfield is), but what for? Do Yes actually sound like Mars Volta and the Outfield?

"'Owner of a Lonely Heart' where Trevor Rabin took a flare fun and burned the corrupt apartheid state to the ground!"

Huh? Is "Owner of a Lonely Heart" even about apartheid? A flare gun is used as a distress signal, but the sentence implies it was intentional. Or did he burn the state to the ground (which is in itself a bad metaphor - how does one burn an abstraction "to the ground"?) by mistake? I don't get it. Why use a "flare gun" instead of "flamethrower"? And why bother figuring all that out when it doesn't seem to actually have anything to do with the music and is just something Dave Q thought was a funny image?

"(TEMPO CHANGE)"

haha - okay, the headers so far are the only thing that work in the article.

"All the Yes covers are really photographs from outer-space telescopes, so they're actually TRUE."

This seems to tie back to the "true summers" thing but I still don't get what for. Are Yes obsessed with "the Truth"? Is there some conflict between truth/falseness going on in their music that I should understand implicitly?

"Except for the cover of Relayer (1974), which is a photo of my apartment block after I stupidly lit the crack pipe with the gas burner on."

Don't know the cover, so don't know if this is another complex joke I'm out of the loop on. Otherwise this looks like the same trick as the first paragraph - stating "the truth" then following it up with an obvious fabrication (unless Dave Q really is a crack smoker that burned his block down).

And that's about where I stopped reading the first time I read this article, cuz frankly the article's entertainment value was inversely proportional to the effort it took to read it. I read the whole thing a few minutes ago but this is all I have time to write about right now, let the flamewar begin now that I've publicly slagged off the writing of an ILM regular....

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link


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