(More on that “white” part later)
― mookieproof, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:19 (twelve years ago) link
Um...there's at least a chance that the shooter in a drive by will be brought to justice. That possibility seems to be in jeopardy in this case, which is most of why it's a big deal and getting a large amount of attention.
― Soggy Cheeseburgers (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 19 March 2012 23:28 (twelve years ago) link
what does "it's a gated community but you can walk in and steal whatever you want" mean?
― bnw, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:34 (twelve years ago) link
You can cut through the woods.
― bamcquern, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:37 (twelve years ago) link
It doesn't matter what race Zimmerman identifies as. The racism here is an entrenched, institutional part of the justice system: If you want to be nearly assured of getting the death penalty, kill a white female; if you want to give yourself good odds of never being charged, kill a black male. Doesn't matter the race of the perpetrator.
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Monday, 19 March 2012 23:40 (twelve years ago) link
I agree that it doesn't matter. was just perplexed when I saw the guy's photo
― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 March 2012 23:41 (twelve years ago) link
quote sounded like armed vigilante was their only option once thieves got past the gate.
― bnw, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:45 (twelve years ago) link
texassparkle's bio: "I'm a conservative activist. I blog at The Houston Chronicle, RightWingNews, Newsbusters, and my own site."
so yeah, trolling.
― s.clover, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:47 (twelve years ago) link
xp Rashada doesn't sound like he approves of what Zimmerman did. He just has an opinion about the security of his housing development.
― bamcquern, Monday, 19 March 2012 23:52 (twelve years ago) link
from all accounts it honestly sounds like zimmerman is mentally unstable, paranoid and completely unfit to carry around a weapon. and racist as hell, of course, but i get the sense that a factor in the institutional protection for him is happening because the police force that should be arresting him feels guilty that they ever let him have his power in the first place.
also MEGA RACISM, but i can't stop thinking about how CREEPY this guy's specific brand of sociopathy is.
― JIM THOMETHEUS (zachlyon), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 00:39 (twelve years ago) link
also heavily annoyed that signing petitions for his arrest or just signal boosting in general isn't happening at a millionth of the same pace as jason russell's funtime-let's-all-kill-an-irrelevant-warlord campaign last week.
― JIM THOMETHEUS (zachlyon), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 00:44 (twelve years ago) link
DOJ apparently taking over the case
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:31 (twelve years ago) link
also phone records show Martin had called his girlfriend minutes before the shooting, her name is being withheld at the moment but she has stated how Martin said how Zimmerman was pursuing him, he put his hood up because a guy was watching him?
this is so totally fucked, all of it
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:34 (twelve years ago) link
this is so terrible. I started to listen to the call but I just can't. I hope the DOJ gets this asshole into a federal prison ASAP.
― plastic surgery dizbusters (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:36 (twelve years ago) link
What is the federal angle on the case?
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:37 (twelve years ago) link
the state is too pathetic to lock up its dangerous citizens?
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:43 (twelve years ago) link
you have really never heard of white latino/hispanic as a category? it's basically a race v. ethnicity question i.e. what matters more to people as a meaningful moniker/identifier.
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:45 (twelve years ago) link
many xps
sincerely, your whitish-tannish-sometimes olive-complected latino correspondant
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:46 (twelve years ago) link
(fyi I know that's not specifically a valid federal case, I'm just mad)
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:48 (twelve years ago) link
The Department of Justice's statement said:
"The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation. The department also is providing assistance to and cooperating with the state officials in their investigation into the incident. With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-doj-investigation-20120320,0,6763029.story
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:49 (twelve years ago) link
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:50 (twelve years ago) link
whoops, beat me to it
That police chief really is a piece of work. He really does have no sense of what a fool he sounds, I guess.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:50 (twelve years ago) link
right so hate crime law I guess? IDK on one hand I guess I'm glad the feds will take this away from fla, but otoh wouldn't it be pretty hard to demonstrate that this was actually a hate crime? I mean obv the fact that the kid was black is a big part of why he is now dead, but it looks more like Zimmerman was a paranoid racist asshole who imagined he was protecting his gated community, not a guy out to intimidate black people in general.
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 14:51 (twelve years ago) link
Not necessarily hate crime law, counselor, you should know better!
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:02 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, i really have no idea -- is pursuing someone with a loaded weapon a clear indicator of malicious intent? i think there it's clear that zimmerman saw martin as criminal because he was black, and that he pursued martin because he thought he was criminal.
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:05 (twelve years ago) link
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/trayvon-martin-case-sent-to-grand-jury
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:06 (twelve years ago) link
but can you string those together and argue that zimmerman pursued and shot martin because he was black? that's certainly how i see it going down but i don't know if that's enough to make a case xp
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:07 (twelve years ago) link
what "federal civil rights statutes" would cover this besides hate crime laws?
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:08 (twelve years ago) link
Maybe a failure to charge Zimmerman amounts to some 14th amendment equal protection/due process violation?
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:09 (twelve years ago) link
no way
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:11 (twelve years ago) link
Way. It's a tough argument, but doable.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:29 (twelve years ago) link
as i understand the case, one of the biggest problems any possible prosecution faces is that while lots of people saw/heard the lead-up and immediate aftermath, george zimmerman is the only direct, living witness to the encounter and shooting itself. he made sure of that. his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on, absent forensic evidence that might seem to dispute it. i mean, zimmerman says trayvon martin attacked him. even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law. all the hypothetical prosecution seems to have at this point are a few witnesses who say they heard trayvon call for help (or think they heard trayvon, or w/e).
if this case ever does go to trial, it's going to be very interesting to see what a jury makes of it. half suspect that a hung jury would be the outcome every time.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:34 (twelve years ago) link
(not personally but) legally speaking, i don't think it's at all "clear that zimmerman saw martin as criminal because he was black". i imagine that the defense's argument would be that zimmerman saw martin as a criminal because he was behaving "erratically" or "suspiciously".
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:39 (twelve years ago) link
honestly, i'm disappointed that the DOJ is apparently only (?) investigating the possibility of a hate-crimes prosecution, rather than pushing for a murder/manslaughter charge.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:42 (twelve years ago) link
With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws."
loading the deck a little here, no?
― less of the same (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:43 (twelve years ago) link
if this case ever does go to trial, it's going to be very interesting to see what a jury makes of it.
What a jury will make of this concerns me, frankly.
― carl agatha, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:43 (twelve years ago) link
george zimmerman is the only direct, living witness to the encounter and shooting itself. he made sure of that. his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on
so one could conceivably kill anyone, on a whim, and as long as no-one else saw it claim it was self defense and get away with it? really? for real?
― ledge, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:45 (twelve years ago) link
Murder and manslaughter aren't federal crimes, are they? Those prosecutions are left to the state. The federal case would be for violating his civil rights (by making him dead).
― any major prude will tell you (WmC), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:46 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, I don't think this should be investigated as a hate crime even though it's pretty clear that race was a factor. But I'm starting to feel like any possible justice that gets done as a result of this tragedy will be tangential to the incident in question.
― Soggy Cheeseburgers (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link
even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law.
Trials . . . do not work that way?
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:49 (twelve years ago) link
well, that's the risk you run when you get courts involved btwn perps and justice /dredd
― less of the same (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:50 (twelve years ago) link
his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on, absent forensic evidence that might seem to dispute it.
was there forensic evidence taken from the scene?
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:50 (twelve years ago) link
i think the local cops forensically investigated that the guy killed was black, unsure as to how much further it went tbh
― less of the same (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:51 (twelve years ago) link
i am going to be for real here i don't care how it's done i want that dude in jail. jenny's point brings up the larger issue that is so upsetting from reading about this case, though; gated communities and institutionalized racism and the irony that white people think black people are so scary when really black people are terrified of white people because look what happens.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:52 (twelve years ago) link
Bringing a federal charge of civil rights violation in a murder case has always been an end run around local prosecutors who are sitting on their hands. Yes, it is a convoluted way to get justice, but it works.
If local prosecutors fail to bring this to a grand jury, or the grand jury fails to indict, I think bringing a federal charge would be OK by me. It is so fucking obvious what happened and Zimmerman is lying his head off.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:53 (twelve years ago) link
send in gene hackman imo
― less of the same (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:54 (twelve years ago) link
there are a billion and one factoids going around about this -- has it been mentioned that martin was on the phone when this happened?
― goole, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 15:55 (twelve years ago) link
the girl on the phone apparently told him to run and he wouldn't
isn't Klayman the fella who tried to sue Obama because he felt threatened as a white man
― frogbs, Wednesday, 4 December 2019 22:46 (four years ago) link