rolling "Is This Racist?" thread

Touch of Evil is a great film made in 1958. A great deal has happened since then, or most of us Hispanics would like to think. Then Will Ferrell comes along.

With the exception of blackface (which is just too weighed down by certain connotations to ever be completely inoffensive unless RDJ is doing it), I think actors can cross those racial lines if they tread very lightly and do it in a respectful fashion. Heston was fine in Touch of Evil because, even though it was kind of a weird decision, he didn't engage in any stereotypical bullshit. And there are actors like Cliff Curtis who play any character that's, y'know, at all swarthy. The reasons for doing so when there are perfectly talented Hispanic/Indian/Inuit/Laotian actors who would just as easily fit the bill is a whole other questionable arena of Hollywood politics (on par with "Why are there only three male Asian actors?").

I dunno guys I still love Touch of Evil, but maybe cause it fits the general wrongness of that movie

― Nhex, Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:52 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. it's also less objectionable than most similar characterizations because charlton heston makes absolutely no attempt to "play mexican". he's just charlton heston with brown shoe polish on his face, stained darker than any of the actual latinos in the cast, an inexplicable absurdity at which no one raises an eyebrow. also, the film treats mexico and its mexican characters with a good deal of respect. not saying its perfect, but it's a hell of a lot less offensive than mickey rooney in breakfast. im(wg)o, anyway.

I agree that it is by no means a parody or satire or disrespectful and it is the way things were done back then despite having access to real Mexican actors. "Salt of the Earth" was an excellent example and awesome for 1954.

Yunioshi...disgusting and so is "Casa de mi Padre".

Also plenty of Hispanic folks are of mostly or entirely European ancestry. Will Ferrell (or anglo american high schoolers playing the Sharks in West Side Story) don't need to paint their faces to be able to portray Hispanic characters.

It might be fair to wait until it's at least been released before we start decrying Casa De Mi Padre. Especially seeing as how Will Farrell seems overall like a pretty decent dude who hasn't previously given us any reason to believe he's a latent racist.

I dunno guys I still love Touch of Evil, but maybe cause it fits the general wrongness of that movie

― Nhex, Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:52 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean tbh i always read heston's brownface as welles just highlighting (oof) the pulpy artifice of the entire project. granted i was mad lifted the first time i saw it.

This is true and half my family in Mexico have green or blue eyes, they are fair skinned and one group blonde. my mother is only a 2nd generation Mexican on one side and 3rd generation Mexican on the other. Her family were the oppressors before the revolution. My paternal grandmother is 100% Apache. Her people were the oppressed in Mexico and the US.

My sibs and I vary completely, my sister passes for "white" my brother has red skin and more Native features, you've seen me on wdyll.

Incidentally, there is still a lot of the fair skinned/dark skinned game being played in Mexico, along the border and in other parts of the US. The fair skinned, colored eyed, lighter haired Mexican and Mexican American girls were considered more attractive than the darker skinned, darker eyed and brown/black skin girls. That sort of thing.

The Hispanics in "Giant" were done up in a strange purplish/eggplant hue but the make-up on Rock Hudson and Elizabeth Taylor wasn't so hot either, the make-up in the film was weird.

But um..."Casa de mi Padre" is a "comedy". that is the thing...How many people know that they are racist or involved in something distasteful when it comes to Hispanics? For example. When you have an entire state in the US that has taken blatantly racist measures in the name of "protection" and "security" you have to wonder.

Well...off the top of my head, I can't come up with many meaningful ways in which Will Farrell is really comparable with Arizona's conservative fringe, is the thing.

Like, the movie might be the worst thing anyone ever did, but reserving judgment until the thing is available for public consumption seems like a reasonable approach to me.

Hmmmm I won't be buying a ticket or lining up at Redbox. While I gave Nacho Libre a chance, I was a different person. Then Indiana happened. A movie like that in places like Arizon or some spots in Indiana just does more harm than good.

Having lived briefly in Indiana, being Hispanic made more of an impact on my life than it had having lived in Texas my whole life. I felt ignorant. I began to feel I had mistaken invisibility for acceptance. I had issues growing up in Del Rio, TX the places was segregated until 1976 and I have told over and over that from Castroville to Del Rio down Highway 90 was the most racist place towards Hispanics, Blacks and Native Americans in Texas at one time. But by the time I entered college I had no chip on my shoulder and felt accepted, never looking for or finding racism in my every day life. Rarely. I remained in Austin for 21 years or so. But man, Indiana...eek!

Then when we moved to Baltimore it was,"What are you?" something I got a lot of when I once visited Philadelphia for 10 days. But really a great experience, I don't mind being asked that but I wonder why I am in some parts.

Are you Hispanic Deric? Just wondering because I would hope it is understood how something like than just comes across to some Hispanics. I don't expect non-Hispanics to understand or agree with me, but it s what it is. Cable TV has loads of non-edifying programming depicting White America in ways I find exploitive and wrog. I just don't watch them and I wouldn't let my child watch them.

Sorry, typos, after midnight....

I'm not Hispanic, no, but I totally understand where your reservations are coming from. Like I said upthread, this is the type of thing that can be done if it's handled delicately (see: RDJ in Tropic Thunder) but which is rarely a good idea. I'm just reserving judgment.

Just out of curiosity, whereabouts in Indiana were you? I mean, it really doesn't matter much in terms of integration or racial sensitivity, but there's at least a small island in Bloomington where you can sort of pretend that everyone gets along with everyone else (although I've heard some awful stuff my sister-in-law has dealt with, even as an IU employee).

it's weird because the trailers for 'casa de mi padre' are striking in how unfunny they are. like either the fact that will ferrell is playing a mexican is supposed to be funny.... or... is it actually not a comedy? are we supposed to laugh at like, his name (armando alvarez)? or the translation thing? the trailer is just a series of latino stereotypes listed all in a row so maybe it's some comment on those stereotypes? i seriously dgi

maybe the trailers just suck but is there anything actually funny about any of the clips in these trailers? honest question

Maybe Will Ferrell movies not directed by Adam McKay just suck? I kinda can't think of the last one that didn't, honestly.

I just read about the film, again. While it claims to have a lot to say as commentary on America's views of Mexicans and vice versa, sadly, I just don't have much faith in it being viewed intelligently. I just see some ignorant viewer missing the point. When you have illegals coming to work here and punished by having their children taken away and put up for adoption. I just think that a film like this needs to be more intelligently done to be edifying. I think of "Chameleon Street" for some reason.

We were in Evansville, Petersburg, Washington area but made frequent trips all over the state. It was in the small towns, "Little Dixie", that sucked. Bloomington was a refreshing, nice college oasis.

Tera, I hear you here. I've got complicated concerns when it comes to things like this. I think of myself as hispanic (xicano, even), but the world sees me as white. When it comes to questions of race I tend to ask myself "how would I, as a hispanic person, like to see white people behave in this instance?" And then, given that I tend to be seen as white, I do my best to follow that principle & set an example for other people who identify as white.

All of that is to say that when it comes to something like Nacho Libre or Casa, I'm torn. There's a part of me that recognizes and enjoys the elements of affectionate mockery, but another part of me that's troubled, knowing that people who don't recognize the affection and only see the mockery are laughing for their own reasons.

Nacho Libre is funny to me because it makes me think of the nuns who taught my CCD classes and the dorky kids who obsessed over lucha libre in my elementary school, and that character lets me imagine what it might be like if one of them had grown up. But is that why someone in Indiana laughs? Probably not.

And I see already the same kind of dilemma coming out of Casa de mi Padre--I grew up with my mother and grandmother watching a lot of novelas, and something that parodies those same beats (with Will Farrell, no less!) has the potential to make me laugh pretty hard. But are other people's laughs going to come from the same places? Or will they come from pure derision?

There's a part of me that agrees with you, Deric--"wait and see," because one wants to wait and see how the laughs are played. That said, though, the cultural divide and past experience says that the laughs are unlikely to come from the same places, and that's what concerns me (and--I think?--tera too).

(P.S. I do just want to point out that, although the overall culture is kinda gross and there's definitely still a lot of pervasive creepy backwardness, there are also a ton of forward-thinking and liberal-minded peeps in Indiana, and pockets of the state are actually verrrrrry slooooooowly and utterly shockingly trending leftward. Just feel the need to defend cuz I'm sorta abruptly back there now and probably will be for a little while and wanna acknowledge that there are some good eggs here fightin' the good fight. And that said, you can certainly feel free to continue generalizing about the state because the generalizations are mostly otm.)

btw this feels like an appropo moment to point out that my dad is from batesville

he grew up working for the casket company and my grandpa made tombstones

lol

Yeaaaaah, that seems kinda fitting for Indiana. A good deal more than half of the population in my mom's town is 50 or older.

suitably gothic imo

i mean tbh i always read heston's brownface as welles just highlighting (oof) the pulpy artifice of the entire project. granted i was mad lifted the first time i saw it.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, this. that's exactly how i take it, and i've only ever seen the movie straight (a tragedy that i intend to rectify as soon as possible).

Indiana wasn't all bad. I really enjoyed our weekend trips hunting for records and Bloomington was a great place, nice vibes and great food. Even in small towns we found friendly people, Vincennes, Jasper, even Evansville, and Indianapolis had shops with nice people. But when the people were unfriendly it was icy cold. The most shocking thing was an old farmer recommending Tera go work on a chicken farm with the other Mexicans.

Big Hoos, otm...

Deric, when I speak of the racism I felt in Indiana, it was what I experienced in Evansville, Petersburg and Washington. New Harmony was great, Terra Haute, Indianapolis and Bloomington, Vincennes were all places I enjoyed. Unfortunately, we spent Monday-Friday in the Petersburg area and had only the weekend to venture out and hang in other places.

I must say though, it was hard not to notice all the cemeteries traveling from town to town.

Snippet of overheard conversation among coworkers (Bloomington townies) about a decade ago:

-I didn't hear you say something bad about the KKK, did I?
-Nah, not me, man.

Needless to say, I was outta that job like a fucking flash. The further you get from the student-y parts of town, the creepier it gets.

You take the good, you take the bad. You take 'em both and there you have the facts of racial tolerance in Indiana, the facts of racial tolerance in Indiana.

there you have the facts of racial tolerance in Indiana, the facts of racial tolerance in Indiana.

is this a song

oh i get it

While I gave Nacho Libre a chance, I was a different person.

^ nomination for favorite sentence on ILX this year

Wow!

I grew up with my mother and grandmother watching a lot of novelas, and something that parodies those same beats (with Will Ferrell, no less!) has the potential to make me laugh pretty hard. But are other people's laughs going to come from the same places? Or will they come from pure derision?

Thinking about this some more, like--I might laugh at a parody of a novela because I recognize it as mocking the familiar (to me) silly tropes of a novela. I think Will Ferrell (or whoever) might argue that those silly tropes are kinda universally recognized as silly; that "worth laughing at" is "worth laughing at" no matter whose culture it originates from. And I guess the counterargument to that is something about power relations--that there's an ethical weight to the history of power relations between two groups, and the history of whites holding power over Mexicans means that their laughter at Mexican culture always has that weight behind it?

I don't know if this is totally the wrong thread for this, obviously I'm kinda thinking out loud and figuring this out as I go. These are complicated issues for me personally, but I'm trying to work through them to come out the other side with some kind of more widely applicable analysis.

Ha! I was though...

haha

also where is max or cr?m to puncture all my illusions of cultural ownership and authenticity

Several layers of complications. Then there is what it means to me vs how it is perceived. How often I have thrown out and ignored how it is perceived only to have that be the main focus later on...

Right??

This is all very important to me, since I'm having a daughter soon and though I don't know what she will look like yet, she will be biracial. I fear the day when either kids make fun of her for speaking spanish and having pale skin or blue eyes and having my last name or having darker skin with my last name and speaking english well. I am hopeful that this won't be a problem for my daughter, but I remember how cruel other kids can be.

this is a pretty good writeup of Casa:

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/16/pick_of_the_week_will_ferrells_incredibly_strange_mexican_adventure/singleton/

..and of course I say that as someone who hasn't seen it speaking to other people who haven't seen it.

Making fun of stereotypes can be hilarious and sort of a relief, but when there's the chance it reinforces those stereotypes it becomes scary to me.

i definitely plan to see the movie fwiw

Me too

Big Hoos, ever discussed whether Cri-Cri's songs were racist or not? I have actually had that discussion on a board once.

the only amusing thing I've seen in any of the Casa trailers was Nick Offerman asking Will Ferrell if he spoke English and Ferrell responding in Spanish "No sir, I do not speak any English." Which was dumb.

He doesn't say "English" he says "American" -- v different!

ah right; I only saw it once

I just saw a guy wearing a t-shirt that said "Did I really just ask A MEXICAN for directions?!"

http://busblog.tonypierce.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/icecreamtruckdancerssj1.jpg

somehow i knew the "re-nig" sticker would already be here but i checked anyway...

i mean tbh i always read heston's brownface as welles just highlighting (oof) the pulpy artifice of the entire project. granted i was mad lifted the first time i saw it.

i feel for obese-americans slighted by Welles' wearing of fatface in that movie