^^ this is from the annenberg foundation, btw, so steer clear if you hate liberal bullshit
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:29 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i mean if we want to teach this to kids we could just send them coal mines
yeah, but i didn't say that's all we're teaching. the college/white collar workplace prep environment part is just as crucial.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:29 (twelve years ago) link
uh
college and the white-collar workplace have little in common
speaking of which, which white-collar workplace are you referring to?
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:30 (twelve years ago) link
the only interchangeable white-collar workplace i can think of is admin
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:31 (twelve years ago) link
white-collar workplace rules taught in high school:
1) do what the boss says2) don't get in fights on school (work) property3) timeliness and neatness count4) dress appropriately and speak with deference to your supposed "superiors"5) etc, etc, etc.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:37 (twelve years ago) link
i'd say that they have a huge amount in common, having spent a good deal of my life in both.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:38 (twelve years ago) link
xp to my own post
I missed mordy's post upthread but I'm generally in agreement w/ robin hanson on this / said more or less the same thing / as does kevin carey
― iatee, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:40 (twelve years ago) link
colleges are totally different from one another. and even different programs at the same college are totally different from one another! I don't think you can really make any generalizations about colleges as such. I think its more, and this has been discussed on ilx plenty before, that if enough of yr. applicants have degrees, and given that a degree is going to have some correlation with capacity as a first-order filter, then you might as well not even consider the applicants without it.
― s.clover, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:40 (twelve years ago) link
College students sleep in and sometimes cut classes and basically make their own hours. The #1 rule of workplaces (white collar and otherwise) is pretty much show up on time and don't leave early. And you can't put your head on your desk and sleep if you get bored while somebody is talking. Also college students can dress pretty much however they want. Meanwhile the #2 rule of white collar workplaces is look somewhat together.
but as I said this is a total generalization and I know there are colleges and b-school depts w/in colleges that make a big deal about being on time and dressing sharp and etc.
― s.clover, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
well the institution wasn't *designed* as something to signal the perfect office worker, it just slowly grew into a signal that's used in that way. if employers got a say, 'being on time' would be an important part of getting your college degree, cause that tells them more than the fact that you got a B+ in anthropology.
― iatee, Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:46 (twelve years ago) link
another important point of connection between high school, college and the white-collar workplace (including blue-collar management and the "professions"): emphasis on paper and computer work.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 02:05 (twelve years ago) link
WTF are you even talking about
mechanics handle 10x as much paper (in triplicate no less) than most white-collar workers i know
also these
1) do what the boss says2) don't get in fights on school (work) property3) timeliness and neatness count4) dress appropriately and speak with deference to your supposed "superiors"
are also the rules at "mcdonalds"
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:33 (twelve years ago) link
also if by "computer work" you mean "word processing" then i gotcha but i guess you've never been to a bank?
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:34 (twelve years ago) link
ah i'm sorry man
i have no idea why i am taking such a nasty tone
it's just that you're saying so much does not compute stuff and in such an authoritative tone that it makes my temples pound
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:35 (twelve years ago) link
your tone is fine, contenderizer is just being willfully obtuse & argumentative for the billionth time
― Flat Of NAGLs (sleeve), Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:44 (twelve years ago) link
I've been made fun of behind my back for caring too much about the content of my classes. It's definitely still not cool to appear to be enthusiastic about anything except money.
― riding on a cloud (blank), Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:54 (twelve years ago) link
i'm perhaps being argumentative, in that i'm stating things rather bluntly, but it's my experience of the white collar workplace that paper and computer work really are central to it, much more so than at the blue collar jobs i've had. note that i was including management, office/admin stuff and the professions in "white collar".
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 03:57 (twelve years ago) link
some of the blue collar work i've done: cleaning sites & offices of various sorts, groundskeeping, light carpentry, drywall, bus driving, prep cook, register jockey
white collare work i've done: database design & maintenance, technical writing, manuscript evaluation, contract checking, qa/qc, accounting, research
^ perhaps skews my perception of things
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 04:01 (twelve years ago) link
i was awesome at all of these things at high school and completely useless at them in a white-collar workplace
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:47 (twelve years ago) link
in school i don't think even i would've guessed i had a latent problem with authority but i found i was pretty unable to tolerate my "superiors" talking to me rudely in the office
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:48 (twelve years ago) link
anyway, what i'm saying is, i find it pretty depressing if those are the things we're meant to take from our school experience
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:49 (twelve years ago) link
nobody in a workplace should talk rudely to colleagues, it's fucking unprofessional imo
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:50 (twelve years ago) link
it's pretty endemic ime
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:53 (twelve years ago) link
well yeah here too but it's unacceptable i think. not the occasional "had a bad day" snap but a general level of disrespect and sense of hierarchical entitlement
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 09:54 (twelve years ago) link
ughhhh workplace hierarchies and the multiple little ways in which people attempt to reinforce them ALL THE TIME that have nothing to do with your actual job or the work you're meant to be doing. at my last job there was a senior guy who was always throwing his weight around in a really argy-bargy at the junior staff, always little menial stuff about why is your desk so untidy or why is there no paper in the printer. it takes two seconds to put the paper in the printer, fucking do it yourself, as i snapped at him once. when he tried to make a fuss about why i was speaking to him like that i was just like, you may be ~senior~ staff but i don't actually report to you. do it yourself. this kept on happening so my own boss eventually just moved my desk so i wasn't anywhere near him.
*hugs freelance lifestyle with no boss and no senior staff and no hierarchies*
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 10:01 (twelve years ago) link
and the thing is, i'm fully aware that was actually a fairly decent workplace environment and a good company to work for, as these things go. some of the places i temped at, my god, inhuman
― lex pretend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 10:02 (twelve years ago) link
i think that one of the best things that educational institutions teach students is (pace Howard Stern) when to shut up and to sit down.― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:05 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Thursday, 15 March 2012 01:05 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i will never forget the first time i visited a university i was applying to (as a high school senior), to, i dunno, somehow soak up its ambience and see if i wanted to join its gestalt, and i attended a class (it was a lecture) and NO ONE WAS TALKING TO EACH OTHER while the professor spoke!!!! you could hear a pin drop! the only place i'd been in my life that was similar was church.
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 15 March 2012 11:08 (twelve years ago) link
How did this fall of sna so quickly? Ilx is growing up.
― bamcquern, Thursday, 15 March 2012 23:46 (twelve years ago) link
'ilx is growing up' = cause this didn't cause a clusterfuck or 'ilx is growing up' = lol kids who cares?
I think it's an interesting subject
― iatee, Friday, 16 March 2012 00:57 (twelve years ago) link
The first one. I think it's an interesting subject, too.
― bamcquern, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:11 (twelve years ago) link
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:57 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:14 (twelve years ago) link
luv u bro but you are mind-bogglingly relentless on all subjects
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:15 (twelve years ago) link
great thread tho, good convo
i want to make it clear that i disagree w/ the OP and i value the idea of a comprehensive liberal arts & sciences education for everyone, but that i also see (from the inside) that a lot of what is said and done in the name of (not only providing that education but also assessing it) is really counterproductive and based more in tradition and expedience than outcome
― the late great, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:21 (twelve years ago) link
otmfm
― desk calendar white out (Matt P), Friday, 16 March 2012 01:25 (twelve years ago) link
I tried to write a post on how all this applies to law school, but I was boring the shit out of myself and had to stop.
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Friday, 16 March 2012 01:42 (twelve years ago) link
Turn it into a law school entrance essay.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 16 March 2012 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
i'd think that these are some of the Industrial Revolution-era skills that the guy in the cartoon was talking about (also responding to bells). And some white collar workplaces probably still operate in that way, but a lot of them have changed.
― sarahell, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:50 (twelve years ago) link
I guess at least to answer the question above, I don't think you actually get a significantly better legal education at a "top" law school than at some mid-range law school, like, IDK, Michigan as opposed to Rutgers. With the caveat that at a top law school you may find your fellow students tougher to compete with (after all, they competed harder than everyone else to get the top grades and LSAT scores that got them there in the first place) and there may be a certain professional advantage to being forged in that kind of fire. Neither reall train you to practice but i don't see how they could
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Friday, 16 March 2012 01:53 (twelve years ago) link
i think i might fail all of those rules miserably tbh
― deconstructive witticism (darraghmac), Friday, 16 March 2012 01:53 (twelve years ago) link
i excelled at #5
― sarahell, Friday, 16 March 2012 01:57 (twelve years ago) link
true but #1-5 were also the aims of public education pretty much since french revolution times and the one-room log schoolhouse
― the late great, Friday, 16 March 2012 02:08 (twelve years ago) link
the industrial revolution and the french revolution were fairly contemporaneous, weren't they?
― sarahell, Friday, 16 March 2012 02:10 (twelve years ago) link
its all connected imo
― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 16 March 2012 02:13 (twelve years ago) link
masons ran both
they want u to be dumb so they make $$$
― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 16 March 2012 02:15 (twelve years ago) link
i mean
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 16 March 2012 02:32 (twelve years ago) link
have a lot of thoughts, will try to make sensei also teach math. my school is 98% latino, title I, one of the poorest districts in the state and has been for decades (in fact, parents from my district have been at the center of a seminal supreme court case that basically upheld that equitable resources for school districts is not the fed govt's problem)
is another way to look at this question "is education primarily a signaling device and not terribly predictive of what someone is capable of doing?"
i don't know. i see lots of bright kids who are years behind their age peers in more affluent communities who are in an environment that doesn't stress that they are to be successful in school. and i see them entering a workforce with a tenuous grasp of formal english and being denied opportunities because of that. if their environment placed a greater emphasis on their success in school, could they have the communication skills to succeed in the white collar workforce?
if they were as computationally fluent as their age peers, might they find engineering or upper level science coursework more accessible, as a challenge they can overcome rather than a sea of implausibly dense formulae and concepts?
i havent been teaching very long. i love what i do. i just don't know to what extent a teacher/school/education system can do to redress the economic disparity between my kids and their peers who expect to be successful in school.
― arsenio and old ma$e (m bison), Friday, 16 March 2012 02:38 (twelve years ago) link
I've frequently heard it argued that the essential cause of the disparity of resources is overrreliance on the property tax to fund school districts; rich neighborhoods get nice schools, poor neighborhoods get crap schools, and often districts aren't big enough to even out the natural disparities. Would be curious to hear feedback on that.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 16 March 2012 02:52 (twelve years ago) link
I think that secondary education is probably where it (generally, for non-technical careers) starts shifting from primarily a human capital thing to a social behavior + capability signal thing. like, I think that an upper-middle class kid from a family w/ smart people could probably drop out of high school at the end of his junior year, never go to college, and still be about as capable when it comes to writing / math / doing basic analytical things as a lot of people I know who did go to college. this also can depend wildly on the hs tho, as we don't really have as strong national standards for secondary education as some places.
― iatee, Friday, 16 March 2012 02:57 (twelve years ago) link