education is primarily a barrier to entry: true or false

here's some other relevant posts:
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/12/on-schools-function.html
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/11/true-believers-in-school.html
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/07/investing-in-school-signals.html

xpost to shakey - i thought you meant you worked somewhere that did facilities work, ie electricians, HVAC repair guys, etc ... it sounds more like you're in the "civil engineering" end of things

close - energy engineering. which sort of requires a combination of design and repair skills (ie you need to know how an optimally functioned system is designed, and also how to retrofit an existing poorly functioning system to function as best as possible)

many xp

you write a very strident paragraph contenderizer, but i'm not convinced it's any less ideological than the views i laid out in the OP

argument could be made that a properly managed apprenticeship in any given field could provide the same chance to show a general measure of willingness to do hard cognitive work that is more relevant and valuable in a given direction without handicapping many people with gradings in subjects that they have no interest in nor faculty.

yeah, wouldn't disagree w this at all.

i take a lot of issue with "the basic approach is a good one" but conty does like to go for bat for the tried and tested values of the 18th century so

course in an ideal world career guidance would be worth a fuck to a 16 yr old, or college wouldn't take place til you were 22 and had already learned IT basics anyway

dude, what could possibly be wrong with a system that asks you to take the most important exams of your life just as you're discovering alcohol and sex?

robin hanson has a whole thing like this where he basically says that education is designed to teach students how to behave appropriately in professional society + suss out who is good at that kind of behavior and who is not.

― Mordy, Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:33 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, left that part out, but it's obviously another part of what the contemporary educational system is designed to do, relative to professions like law, medicine and engineering: prepare people for the demands not only of the "professional" workplace, but for the sort of education that will specifically prepare them for that workplace. in part, high school is where you get to demonstrate that you're willing to apply yourself simply because that application is requested of you, and i'd argue that that, too, is hugely valuable.

I am seeing how students increasingly regard their education as a service commodity e.g. "I paid $600 for these credits and I better get a good grade." It doesn't help that my university has used gobbledygook like "results-oriented student excellence," like we're in charge of making good tacos or something. So, yes, I do see students who regard education as an annoyance to circumvent. To a degree I don't blame them.

apprenticeship is actually the model that a lot of education reformers like to use these days (one popular pedagogical approach is called cognitive apprenticeship)

i like the idea but i feel like its going to be even harder to provide that than a decent school aystem

It sucks to teach math, chemistry, history, and I dunno Virgil to students who regard college as the means by which to acquire a piece of paper that signifies "You're okay to start your own business."

dude, what could possibly be wrong with a system that asks you to take the most important exams of your life just as you're discovering alcohol and sex?

well sure, growing up is hard. we segue into "real life" just as we're losing our minds hormonally, figuring out who we are and want to be, and exploring a vast and dangerous world. the fact that this is true is not, however, the fault of the educational system.

I am seeing how students increasingly regard their education as a service commodity e.g. "I paid $600 for these credits and I better get a good grade."

happening a lot in the UK too now that students are paying the full cost of their degrees

dude, what could possibly be wrong with a system that asks you to take the most important exams of your life just as you're discovering alcohol and sex?

oh i fuckin wish i was, iirc, discovering parental committal & possibly taco fries

It sucks to teach math, chemistry, history, and I dunno Virgil to students who regard college as the means by which to acquire a piece of paper that signifies "You're okay to start your own business."

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:45 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it might do, yes, but from their POV it might suck to have to hear about these things and be graded on your interest in them when you know your career plans don't include them

I am seeing how students increasingly regard their education as a service commodity e.g. "I paid $600 for these credits and I better get a good grade."

^ a good attitude, imo. encourages the sort of work that's likely to result in success (i.e., good grades).

and financial success

well yr self-fulfilling prophecy came true

Panglossian!

it might do, yes, but from their POV it might suck to have to hear about these things and be graded on your interest in them when you know your career plans don't include them

oh yeah! We're finally seeing the results of "democratizing" the educational system. It's neither bad nor good imo. If "society" requires a college degree for most anything then we must become degree mills.

It sucks to teach math, chemistry, history, and I dunno Virgil to students who regard college as the means by which to acquire a piece of paper that signifies "You're okay to start your own business."

it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now, because that's pretty much the only "utility" of many courses, at high school and above.

then again that doesn't apply across the board, making a 15-yr-old who dislikes chemistry and knows at that point that their adult life will not involve any of it sit through lessons is just going to alienate them from the system and reinforce the idea that they're just doing it for a piece of paper.

It sucks to teach math, chemistry, history, and I dunno Virgil to students who regard college as the means by which to acquire a piece of paper that signifies "You're okay to start your own business."

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:45 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it might do, yes, but from their POV it might suck to have to hear about these things and be graded on your interest in them when you know your career plans don't include them

― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:48 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, but if you know that your career plans do not require such things, in any way shape or form, and you are in a school that does require them, then the only real problem is that you've chosen the wrong school. i mean, basically the only thing you really need to start a business is a line of credit.

but when the school in question is high school ... ?

it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now,

did it ever? Seriously! ILE is one of the few communities in which I've encountered people like me who used to read and write because they gave him pleasure.

i agree with noodle vague upthread (v. beautifully put). some rough thoughts: there is this idea that logic, reasoning, critical thinking and other side effects of learning math and science will serve someone just for being those skills, directly applied to life, but i think it's more about learning how to perform these skills in a setting, i.e., what takes precedence for success is how able someone is to meet and perform the requirements necessary to gain membership in a group. sometimes those requirements are "hard" rather than "soft" or whatever but i still think this is a big reason why secondary education and "the field" (knowledge/production/market work) exhibit so many disconnects, those two cultures require two different performance profiles, with different amounts of element overlap.

i think education culture, in the u.s. at least, has many tangled and contradictory aims and claims. the impulse contenderizer is spouting above for one. the idea that pure education is about a kind of personal liberation, which needs to be majorly questioned and sorted out because it ends up being a cover for a lot of hypocrisy.

lots of x-posts of course

yeah, but if you know that your career plans do not require such things, in any way shape or form, and you are in a school that does require them, then the only real problem is that you've chosen the wrong school. i mean, basically the only thing you really need to start a business is a line of cred

The subjects I mentioned are part of most colleges' core curriculum.

but when the school in question is high school ... ?

fair point, but i'm good with everybody having to learn to crawl, even if they're pretty damn sure that they have no intention of ever walking

it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now

this ties in with what Alfred's saying and what i said about the different values in education systems. i definitely think that education as a value in itself is being pushed out in favour of consumerism and the needs of employers, but ironically in the UK at least we still seem pretty bad at creating an education system that's meeting the actual needs of employers

do u guys ever feel like with something like education that so many words have already been written about the topic that anything you had to say about it would just be a drop in the ocean?

so the UK still produces business students who can write actual compound sentences? Wow.

i definitely think that education as a value in itself is being pushed out in favour of consumerism and the needs of employers, but ironically in the UK at least we still seem pretty bad at creating an education system that's meeting the actual needs of employers

ha otm the UK's speciality really is in pitching for a compromise and ending up with the worst of both worlds

hey, look! matt responded to one of my posts without directly calling me a racist. red letter day...

'learning for learning's sake'

i mean, i dunno, does nobody else even find this a troublesome concept to begin with? learning what? decided by whom? to what end? there's more baggage there than is assumed, and i think the attitude of 'learning what someone else finds interesting for someone else's sake' probably turns a lot more off the idea of education than many other factors discussed itt

has anyone mentioned yet that the current US educational system is a frankenstein's monster hodgepodge of remnants from the transition between agrarian + industrialization?

"like we're in charge of making good tacos or something."

frankly, i would have liked to have gone to taco-U... i guess that does speak to an apprenticeship-envy.

gonna say it's more a test of yr ability/willingness to jump through hoops, useful skill for modern life imo

dude, what could possibly be wrong with a system that asks you to take the most important exams of your life just as you're discovering alcohol and sex?

otms

so is society mayyyne xp

learning for learnings sake implies not grading

^^

i guess by learning for learning's sake we're talking about the idea that a broad base of general knowledge and skills might be important for kids developmentally. i wdn't argue that it can be done in a very ham-fisted and counterproductive fashion, but as a general idea i'm good with it. sometimes kids have to do things against their natural inclinations which are mostly eating jelly babies, watching tv and beating on weaker kids?

the quality of one's education is much more a function of one's attitude toward it than it having taken place in any particular scenario. there are limits to this, of course, (yes, engineers and scientists) but no, ppl do not need a college degree to be social media specialists and seo rock stars.

a degree is much more a symbol of having undergone a process than that process actually involving learning.

eating jelly babies, watching tv and beating on weaker kids?

see, p sure two out of these three things are valuable life experience and can lead to future success

also in the UK at least there is way too much emphasis on grading in situations where it doesn't matter.

obviously if you want to do brain surgery or airline piloting as an adult then some sort of certificate of competence wd be in order.

also one of the problems with this education system (and a lot of our discussion) is that it takes ability as a given rather than subject to growth - it confuses snapshots w/ maps

CA/PA

^ also where most of my college nights went tbf

noodle vague how can watching tv be a natural inclination when tv is made by man

so are jelly babies

we naturally engage with our environment, inc jelly babies

nah i don't really buy the "kids are savages" mentality but "kids are not the best judges of their own long-term self-interest" is pretty uncontroversial. i mean, people are not the best judges of etc. on the whole

yes, on the research level the opposite is true

My late father was a mechanical engineer by training, but it's amazing how the field hasn't changed. Sure, they use computers a lot more. My dad worked part-time up to the last month of his life, he adapted to the CAD programs just fine!

Engineers must maintain their math schools their entire life! My dad used to sit down at night with a math book! I envied him, people think math is hopelessly dry, it's interesting if you view it as an expression of spatial relationships! If you're into art or design or photography you might want to maintain some math skills.

My dad put a lot of pressure on me to learn math. It keeps your brain sharp and doesn't have any ideological bullshit in it. I like doing the odd math problem.

We had a math test in design school and I got a C! I got a high score on my math SAT but I hadn't practiced in a while.

Math and science don't discriminate based on background, but sometimes a student's social climate discourages them from learning math. i.e., if you struggle with math you are stupid! Conceptually, it is easier than philosophy or literature...doing the problems is difficult.

This seems quite salient here:

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/03/23-8

here's an interesting one

http://nyti.ms/MN6Q8s

i am pretty sure nobody really answers the final question in the comments but i didn't read all of them

post secondary education facilitated entry ime ; )