Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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the fans push the band onto you

not the genre

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (sixteen years ago) link

Important point here: Hilary Duff is much better than TV on the Radio.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (sixteen years ago) link

indie:boosterism of band, not genre (as is already accepted)

teenpop: boosterism of genre (as has to fight for legitimacy)

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (sixteen years ago) link

of course hilary duff is better than tv on the radio, i dont know what thats got to do with anything

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (sixteen years ago) link

"the world"

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I think what 696 is saying is that there's an initial stage of argument - "Why are we even talking about this stuff?" - that doesn't need to be gone through for indie* these days** but that discussion of teenpop (outside the thread) keeps coming back to.

*except when someone forces the issue, but even on ILM this is a rarity nowadays
**wasn't always so, definitely.

xpost yes, he was saying that.

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (sixteen years ago) link

(blah blah xpost) I think what 696 is saying is that when you're "sold" TV on the Radio or other indie bands so often, then you accept that it is a worthwhile thing to talk about, but when Miley Cyrus doesn't exist except for in a Radio Disney (and maybe MySpace) vacuum, there's a tendency to be more boosterish, to exaggerate what you get out of the music (which is not to say the enjoyment isn't genuine) and to be defensive about it.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Before we get into an indie tangent or legitimacy or disingenuousness or whatever, I should mention that indie music is in no way in opposition to the non-indie stuff discussed on the teenpop thread.

xposts

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Boosterism is Boosterism. Aren't we talking about humorlessness? Well, that's produced by boosterism, no matter what the fan is pushing for. And as pointed out above, teenpop is an amalgamation of genres. Meg & Dia are written about there, but they also get written about on absolutepunk.net.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (sixteen years ago) link

And I have no idea why TV on the Radio is worth talking about, or half as interesting as most of the subjects in the Teenpop thread. If anything, the consequence of indie's acceptance is that people don't care enough to ask.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:36 (sixteen years ago) link

Also, very few people on the teenpop thread really like Miley Cyrus all that much! I thought she was fun when she came out, now couldn't care less. Frank and xhuxk never liked her much, IIRC, and I don't think anyone except me and Greg and Mordy even mention her. Dimension 5ive hates her!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:36 (sixteen years ago) link

c'mon guys, just admit that your tastes are illegitimate, it'll make everything a lot easier.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

i think the boosterism of genre is a form of defensiveness (fighting for legitimacy), and the defensiveness is a contributory factor to humourlessness

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

ive never heard miley cyrus or tv on the radio lol

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

"What is "earnest froth"?"

http://www.csulb.edu/~csnider/wilde.image.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (sixteen years ago) link

earnest froth, he used to be trombone player in sol campbell and his chiswick riverboat gamblers

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (sixteen years ago) link

Sigh. Alright. I'll give up the ghost. I don't really like any of the music I pretend to. I really just like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin (and Tool AND Children of Bodom) but I'm contrarian. My bad.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm only defensive when people accuse me of being: dishonest, humorless, a pedophile (which has happened directly and indirectly in publications I write/wrote for), a misguided follower, a "specialist," a "generalist," etc. etc. etc.

^^^ of course. but, if you are a teenpop fan, there is always the chance of this kind of attack, just round the corner, so defensiveness isnt surprising, even if its quite muted

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Sigh. Alright. I'll give up the ghost. I don't really like any of the music I pretend to. I really just like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin (and Tool AND Children of Bodom) but I'm contrarian. My bad.

-- Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (47 secon

dude, defensive much;)

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (sixteen years ago) link

(I'm sorry, who is dabug? If you don't want to say, no worries, I was just curious.)

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (sixteen years ago) link

serious, i dont see anyone suggesting you dont like what you like

or

where have you read in what ive said, something along those lines?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (sixteen years ago) link

I also think that "fighting for legitimacy" re: teenpop is sort of an outgrowth of a broader goal of mine to fight against idiocy in music writing, in part because I've contributed to this myself and still do occasionally. Teenpop is, almost without exception, where this idiocy is most pronounced, easiest to spot, and easiest to deflate. (But again, that's only when legitimacy is even an issue, which it isn't explicitly, or even implicitly, THAT often on the teenpop thread, and certainly isn't a "rule.")

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (sixteen years ago) link

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (sixteen years ago) link

xpost
exactly, you just shouldn't like what you like.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

well, there it is!

im not suggesting anything is unjustified or bad, just that all the reasons you have stated are surely a contributory factor to genre-boosterism, that wont be present in other genres for the simple fact that those barbs and attacks are not there?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

if you are a teenpop fan, there is always the chance of this kind of attack, just round the corner, so defensiveness isnt surprising, even if its quite muted

I'm never surprised, but I'm often defensive. Especially when it happens here. What is this "outside world" of which you speak, anyhow?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.newyorktelephone.net/images/03-2006/28/5000.jpg

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

Astounding!

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

-- Mordechai Shinefield,

ffs you guys, can you not keep it humourless, i cant keep up

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

I've got to go take a film final on [wait for it......] legitimacy and marginalization in Jewish film. Be back later.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

serious, i dont see anyone suggesting you dont like what you like

not you, but it's all over the place! people accusing the teenpop dudes of "frothing" or "fawning" or "exaggerating" or "going overboard" when they call albums by lindsay lohan or paris hilton amazing

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

You can't beat a good Aly and AJ tune for SHAME SHAME SHAME. Try "Not This Year"!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

696 otm upthread btw

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

OR IS HE

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

no, he is.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

yes lex I KNOW.

i thought people were saying i was saying that, because...i was discussing with them

the reason people say that, is why i think there is genre-boosting!!

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

("Not This Year" is amazing, btw, my #4 single of the year. Last year's #4 was "First" by LiLo, just like jaymc!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

oh shit, i should quit while im ahead

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

to be honest i don't think calling the teenpop people "defensive" is at all helpful - if anything i'm impressed at how calm and level-headed they've mostly remained, i don't have anything like that patience to deal with stupid attacks. it's the stupidity of the attacks which is more the issue here

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

Important point here: Hilary Duff is much better than TV on the Radio.

See, this is precisely the sort of "look, controversial!" rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way. Not because I believe that TV on the Radio is inherently better. (I like them sometimes but also think they're very much overrated. I can't remember ever having heard a Hilary Duff song, although I probably have.) But there is this sense of gleeful canon upheaval that doesn't really engage with its motivations all the time. I mean, I understand how it's worthwhile to focus on music that ordinarily doesn't written about at all, but there is an element of "blah, indie rock!" beyond the Lex complaining about boys with guitars. There's Mordecai's immediate assumption that the posters on this thread that are complaining about teenpop and/or the teenpop thread are somber "indie kids" (not so much). And I seem to recall a Cure for Bedbugs blog post about the new Arcade Fire album, which amounted to not much more than "Ick! Dull, dull, dull!" -- which I guess is partially an attempt to distance himself from his own 9.7 Pitchfork review of the first one.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link

AMAZINGNESS of lohan's 'first' seconded (also 'speak' and 'nobody til you' and i heart the ott melodrama of 'confessions')

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link

Wait, did we decide genre-boosting is good or bad already? We can't even decide whether or not teenpop is actually a genre on the teenpop thread! I should be taking notes...

xpost, jaymc, that was clearly baiting intended for this thread. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a statement like that (from me, anyway) on the teenpop thread. Maybe on my blog, though, because it makes me chuckle to myself to do that occasionally...especially on Mislabeled Monday. Wonder if I can still get to #1 on Hype Machine with that trick.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

i dont mean actually overtly defensive lex. i mean that positive boosterism is a (necessary?) form of defensiveness, because its important for the framework/genre to be taken seriously, in order for the players to be taken seriously

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

"First" was 2005, btw. My #4 last year was "Crazy."

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

No, I called the new Arcade Fire album DULL DULL DULL because it's fucking DULL DULL DULL and their last one was worth 9.7 Pitchfork Dollars.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

its a bit like how football fans are fans of their team, but dont really boost for football itself

but fans of minor sports are fans of the sport, and rep for the sport itself

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

See, this is precisely the sort of "look, controversial!" rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way.

so why doesn't it rub you the wrong way when it's the other way round, which is far far more common, esp on ilm? the assumption that tv on the radio/bob dylan/whoever are not only "obviously" better than hilary duff, but also "obviously" more worthy of discussion?

and for all that you lot say that our "canon-upheaval" is oh so tired, i think the outraged response to it is indicative that...no matter how much you think you're over it, it's still v much ingrained in your attitudes

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

And f's sake, all you got out of that massive post was "ick dull dull dull"???? It was like three thousand words long or something! Plus comment threads!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:51 (sixteen years ago) link

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