red state lobbyists snuck that question mark in my post
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:11 (twelve years ago) link
iatee, should we make most of the country a national park? would we allow visitors to this park? how would they travel to it?
― valleys of your mind (mh), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:12 (twelve years ago) link
"Fuck everybody who doesn't already live in New York" is kind of the least useful political ideology ever.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:14 (twelve years ago) link
my political ideology is 'I want everyone to be able to afford to live in new york' and iirc you are someone who has mentioned he would enjoy living in new york but cannot
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:16 (twelve years ago) link
so your scheme to making it affordable to live in New York is to... make it more expensive to live everywhere else?
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:17 (twelve years ago) link
yeah thats kind of how it works!
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:18 (twelve years ago) link
Not New York, San Francisco. If I'm going to live in a shoebox and survive on ramen, I at least want weather I enjoy.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:18 (twelve years ago) link
Not sure how Queens is getting its veggies when gas costs $23 a gallon.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:19 (twelve years ago) link
also: fuck the Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Knicks and Nets, at least in SF I'd have rooting interests to listen to on the radio while I build my hobo fire
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:19 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
queens will basically be the only place getting veggies when gas costs $23 a gallon!
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:20 (twelve years ago) link
at least in SF I'd have rooting interests
I only read this part of the sentence at first and it's more entertaining if I use the non-american version of "rooting"
― valleys of your mind (mh), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:21 (twelve years ago) link
xp Staten Island sol
― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:22 (twelve years ago) link
in europe gas costs multiple times as much as it does here in and yet, they manage to eat vegetables, somehow
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:22 (twelve years ago) link
I live in a state that's larger than France. I can't imagine that has anything at all to do with differences in transportation.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:24 (twelve years ago) link
queens is much smaller than both your state and france
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:24 (twelve years ago) link
And has no arable farm land.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:25 (twelve years ago) link
are you a farmer, milo?
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:25 (twelve years ago) link
its true. how will queens get vegetables? if only there were farms in new york, connecticut, or new jersey.
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:26 (twelve years ago) link
See, I like the idea that the crazy growth of the 20th century was on the back of exploitation of the natural resources of the americas and the access to cheap energy, but it seems too reductive to think that the system's ills sprout from that as well.
fwiw I think a medium-sized country is going to end up following in the wake of China, not the US, and the patterns of use and models we'll end up with will reflect that
Whether western industry and the scientific innovation of the US/China has a part in it, that's a good question.
― valleys of your mind (mh), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:27 (twelve years ago) link
I have a vegetable garden.
All of this is to say that your forcing everyone into urban gulags idea is wicked-awesome Stalinism, but aside from being completely unrealistic: NYC is pretty much the definition of not-self sustaining. You can feel good about riding the bus and subway and living blocks from work, but your food and material goods are getting trucked in just like everyone else's.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:28 (twelve years ago) link
Farms in NY, Connecticut and NJ = industrial ag producing and trucking food into the glorious metropolis
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:30 (twelve years ago) link
i dont get what your alternative is here
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:31 (twelve years ago) link
what rankles isn't concern for the environment, it's the blindingly smug sense of superiority that you know something all the yokels in the rest of the country don't and the unwillingness to entertain the idea that adapting the rest of America (which is lolhuge if you haven't noticed) to a more sustainable model rather than trying to make Blade Runner happen.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:32 (twelve years ago) link
trucking in food is expensive, will continue to be expensive. population density offsets that expense.
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:32 (twelve years ago) link
NYC is pretty much the definition of not-self sustaining. You can feel good about riding the bus and subway and living blocks from work, but your food and material goods are getting trucked in just like everyone else's.
not only do I agree w/ that, I think attempts to pretend like big cities can be self-sustaining are misguided. but most americans do not work as farmers, in fact very few do. most people have service sector jobs that are not particularly related to the ag economy.
I don't think farmers should move to brooklyn, but I do think a lot of people need to realize they're not farmers.
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:33 (twelve years ago) link
I think most people realize that they aren't farmers
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:33 (twelve years ago) link
fwiw i am not literally proposing the forced relocation of the entirety of the united states to new hampshire
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:33 (twelve years ago) link
j/k i totally am
― iatee
i dunno where you get your info but vegetables are an unheard-of luxury here
― beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
They could have dolphin farms in the East River
― Unleash the Chang (he did what!) (Austerity Ponies), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, February 21, 2012 1:33 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i though you were into WoW
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
There is no real alternative right now, that's why even good politicians have to balance concern with the future with concern for the present. But ideas that venture anywhere near making Utah and Iowa and George more sustainable are infinitely more useful than iatee's schtick.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
yeah you would think, but we operate w/ a policy model that sorta assumes they are
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
hahaha goole
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:35 (twelve years ago) link
take my hovercycle over to the east rivers famous dolphin-meat shack before another shift at the content mine
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:35 (twelve years ago) link
what are these ideas that venture near making utah and iowa and george more sustainable that don't involve people giving things up?
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:35 (twelve years ago) link
iirc in 2025 we get microwave power and in 2050 fusion power
― max, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:36 (twelve years ago) link
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:33 PM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Frances Farmer didn't, and look what happened to her. ;_;
― A Full Torgo Apparition (Phil D.), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link
Where are your ideas "involving people giving things up"? 'We need to make gas and mail prohibitively' expensive isn't sustainably giving things up, it's destroying the livelihood and social fabric of most Americans. Including urbanites.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link
I know it's a typo but I love the idea of a big dude named George just greedily consuming vast amounts of resources while US policy makers look on in horror going "George, dude... you have to become more sustainable."
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:38 (twelve years ago) link
I think you don't understand the word 'sustainability', it doesn't mean 'we get to sustain the lifestyles we have now forever'
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:38 (twelve years ago) link
the only type of sustainability that ppl are going to vote for does, is the problem
― beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:40 (twelve years ago) link
on the one hand i'm not opposed to certain things in the commons being subsidized.
on the other hand i don't think getting filled envelopes of paper put in your door every day is all that crucial to the social fabric
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:40 (twelve years ago) link
Right, instead it means sackcloth and ashes for all.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:40 (twelve years ago) link
We could be really sustainable and just cull the herd.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:41 (twelve years ago) link
I don't understand how long-term sustainability includes making it more difficult for people to travel to other areas for work or making it prohibitively expensive for businesses to transfer tangible goods to other locations.
It makes a lot more sense to say "we should break the United States up into smaller countries responsible for their own people/infrastructures" than it does to say "we should make everything prohibitively expensive so people can't afford to live anywhere".
― (thinks and smiles) (DJP), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
because...those things...are often not sustainable?
― iatee, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:43 (twelve years ago) link
Old people are not sustainable.http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTMwOTY3NTE5NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDYxNDcyMg@@._V1._SY317_.jpg
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:44 (twelve years ago) link
is iatee vegetarian y/n?
― valleys of your mind (mh), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:45 (twelve years ago) link
I don't understand how long-term sustainability includes making it more difficult for people to travel to other areas for work
just more expensive, tbh, and not just for work
or making it prohibitively expensive for businesses to transfer tangible goods to other locations.
not necessarily 'prohibitively', then, throw out a figure that isn't prohibitive or at which prohibitive is approached and i suppose it's a place to start
― beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Tuesday, 21 February 2012 19:45 (twelve years ago) link