gender

I'm happy to engage on this stuff if Contenderizer can point up the studies that confirm a causal link, as I failed to find any?

Some time - probably tomorrow night - I will post highlights from chapter one of Delusions that I think will be of interest and hopefully move this aspect of the conversation forward. Apologies in advance for what will inevitably be a rather narrow focus from me while I'm reading this book.

and like IS THIS ALL THESE IS??? No way, Jose. Give me something else, give me a different world, this is bullshit.

okay, see, that makes sense to me. i sort of get why one might want to categorically reject thinking that seemed associated in even a slight way with a culture of horror that one hoped to transcend. like, why cling to the old when new thinking might offer the possibility of transformation? why not just make something better?

i get that. it's just that i (i don't know how to say this) i don't work that way. i can only see and say what seems sensible to me, what seems right or likely or true or w/e. i guess i assume that by being as rigorously objective about things as possible, i can cut through the bullshit, even the culture bullshit that frames perception and "objectivity", and that this will ultimately provide a more reliable shot at real transformation.

i won't say that either approach is better, and i can certainly see how they might conflict.

uh isn't the minor's body forcing the body to go through puberty?

― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier

SEEEEE!!! This is interesting!! So, okay, first: the blockers/drugs are not harmful, they just delay the onset of male puberty, so if the transwoman/girl wants to transition once she's considered old enough to "know" "herself" (wtf here, btw), she won't have to fight with physically male characteristics like facial hair, a lower voice, physical size, etc. If she WANTS to allow her body to do what it chemically wants to do later, she can always go through puberty later, too. It doesn't take that away, it's just a delaying tactic.

Second, WHY SHOULD WHAT HER BODY "WANTS" BE MORE "NATURAL" FOR HER?

Laurel otm. The mind takes the body into account all the time, but the reverse can't be said of the body taking the mind into account.

So, okay, first: the blockers/drugs are not harmful,

deeply, deeply skeptical of this claim, to put it mildly.

Flag post me all you want for this but my god, Contenderizer you are acting like a butthurt asshole still going on about how outraged you are that you might have to back up opinion on a controversial subject with some science. Really not doing yourself any favours not letting the sniping thing go.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:26 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

hey, WCC. if you want to take my articulation of my feelings as the ravings of a "butthurt" "asshole", that's up to you, and i have no problem with that. i'm not "outraged", though, and nothing i said there had anything to do with you in particular. my point was simply what i hope we (the universal we) can amicably agree to disagree on certain points without derailing the conversation.

Wtf shakey, do you say when your loved one needs medical care, "I'm deeply suspicious of this medical/pharmaceutical intervention into my loved one's well being. I'm going to need to think about it."? Look it up, then! Figure it out! Meanwhile I will google "puberty inhibitors" for you so maybe we can all learn something.

http://www.imatyfa.org/permanent_files/pubertyblockers101.html

Puberty Inhibitors (Puberty Blockers, GnRh Analogues, Puberty Suppressors, Hormone Suppressors) are a group of medications that are prescribed by an endocrinologist to suppress or inhibit puberty. The medications work by suppressing the production of sex hormones (Testosterone and estrogen). Puberty Inhibitors are reversible and are used to prevent the devastating effects of developing unwanted secondary sexual characteristics in gender dysphoric children.
Reviewed by: Dr. Norman P. Spack, M.D.,
Associate in Endocrinology at Children’s Hospital Boston

so if the transwoman/girl wants to transition once she's considered old enough to "know" "herself" (wtf here, btw), she won't have to fight with physically male characteristics like facial hair, a lower voice, physical size, etc. If she WANTS to allow her body to do what it chemically wants to do later, she can always go through puberty later, too. It doesn't take that away, it's just a delaying tactic.

Second, WHY SHOULD WHAT HER BODY "WANTS" BE MORE "NATURAL" FOR HER?

― one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:31 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

well, this sort of elides the question of self-determination as relates to age, right? we don't allow those below a certain age to "own" themselves. they're considered the property of others, and that's part of the grounds on which we enforce (for instance) laws against pederasty. those below a certain age aren't considered capable of making the relevant decisions for themselves. i mean, i'd side with the kid, myself, but i can see why the issue would get complex fast if the parents opposed the administration of the drug.

Wtf shakey, do you say when your loved one needs medical care, "I'm deeply suspicious of this medical/pharmaceutical intervention into my loved one's well being. I'm going to need to think about it."?

um... yes? having worked with medical care providers and the pharm industry let me tell you there is a lot of scary shit/questionable motives out there.

I hadn't really thought about puberty inhibitors much before, would need to look into it.

xp Yes but it's the only window available to make this decision, before full-blown physical development of secondary sex characteristics. So maybe our culture of invalidating the agency of young people will also have to readjust?

^ yeah, i'm cool with that. dreading the inevitable "preteen girls gone wild" vids though.

can't find much about their long-term efficacy and safety, dunno how much googling and paper-reading I wanna do on this subject atm

xp

okay, now THAT was trolling. sorry :/

in general, i think we should be more open to the idea that older adolescents might have some idea of what they want in life.

xp

Really, in keeping with plax's bit from before, maybe a preferable world would be one in which a person's physical body DIDN'T inhibit them from claiming a different set of behaviors, performances, whatever, of gender, I don't really have the language to properly put this in academic terms, but we don't live there yet. Unfortunately.

It feels like small problem-wrangling again, but in the meantime people are having lives, having crisis moments and not being helped, not seeing solutions or being flatly told there ARE no solutions, and these are people's LIVES we're messing with.

I think the question of whether the average 11/12 year-old should be given the right and power to delay his/her own puberty is at least worthy of a debate and not dismissive comments as though it were illiberal to raise an eyebrow.

^ yeah, i'm cool with that. dreading the inevitable "preteen girls gone wild" vids though

Why do you even think this would come up in any way? It feels like you're conflating gender and sex?

http://www.wikigallery.org/paintings/258001-258500/258135/painting1.jpg

This extremely effeminate (he wore dressed his whole life), privileged homosexual is known as the grandfather of Europe (at least to Roman Catholic royalty) since he did his dyanstic job and married twice and begat appropriately. He also won the battle of Cassel in 1677 yet was once called 'one of the silliest women in France'.

Er, dresses

I'll just come out and say there are all kinds of things I intend to deny my 11/12 yo when she reaches that age, and serious body modification is going to be one of them, to say nothing of relatively new hormone treatments promoted by the pharmaceutical industry.

xp

Saying that someone is capable of knowing whether their private, mental self is "male" or "female" or neither, or something else, has absolutely 0% to do with their availability or readiness for sex.

Hurting, if you felt that strongly at 12 that you didn't want to turn into a man and I were your father, my sympathy would be entirely with you. I agree that 11/12 isn't adult nor think it should be but, man, if you fuck this up as a dad, your whole relationship is probably screwed.

Well, Shakey, hopefully your 12 year old will never be in this particular very difficult position and you can continue to be reductive about gender on the internet.

Why do you even think this would come up in any way? It feels like you're conflating gender and sex?

― one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:48 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol nonononononono. with that regrettable "girls gone wild joke", i was trying to point out that if we grant what we now consider "kids" more agency over their lives, then there will be scumbags out there willing to exploit it

My trans friend knew she was meant to be a woman when she was quite young.

wait how am I being reductive

xp

if it turns out she wants to be trans she can wait to make that decision imho. average 12yo is not a very rational actor.

I think the question of whether the average 11/12 year-old should be given the right and power to delay his/her own puberty is at least worthy of a debate and not dismissive comments as though it were illiberal to raise an eyebrow.

― happiness is the new productivity (Hurting 2), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:48 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

^ see, i agree with this, too. shit is complicated, really complicated.

And I'm saying that you're making a big leap that positions gender and sexual er maturity/readiness/something close to each other as related things, but they're not, so this should not even be a component.

if it turns out she wants to be trans

to be clear my objection is not to kids figuring out their gender identity, it's to their confusion being exploited and catered to by total evil companies who do not have their health or best interest in mind.

xp

if it turns out she wants to be trans

I have a daughter...? I don't get what you're getting at.

I mean I wouldn't let a 12yo get a boob job either, you know?

to be clear my objection is not to kids figuring out their gender identity, it's to their confusion being exploited and catered to by total evil companies who do not have their health or best interest in mind.

shakey dont you see that this happens already regardless? its just that instead of the pharma industry its the entertainment/fashion/education/church/friends/life industry

lol this thread

well duh. it's my job as a parent to help her navigate that stuff.

xp

these were on the table next to my laptop

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo305/lejospopo/photo-2.jpg

shakey dont you see that this happens already regardless? its just that instead of the pharma industry its the entertainment/fashion/education/church/friends/life industry

Sure, but Big Pharm can cause chemical imbalances that make dealing with education/church/friends/life worse.

man, this thread

And I'm saying that you're making a big leap that positions gender and sexual er maturity/readiness/something close to each other as related things, but they're not, so this should not even be a component.

oh, i see where yr coming from now. legally, like i said before, this case hinges on the sorts of decisions that children are legally permitted to take ultimate responsibility for and authority over. at present, in most western societies, this = "none". age-designated "children" are not legally responsible for themselves or their decisions. they have no authority to enforce their own will. this principle is what allows parents and the state to make decisions for and to "protect" children. it is what allows us to forbid sexual relations between children and adults.

sure, we could undo the special legal status of children if we want, either in this one particular case or in a more general sense. it's an interesting suggestion, but i do think there are risks involved and that they aren't trivial.

lol judith

lol this thread

― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:59 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

man, this thread

― plee help i am lookin for (crüt), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:01 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah, who knew?

more like woman, this thread

also yeah, i've been reading a lot of deleuze lately and i think that way of thinking is pretty crucial for me at this point. i think "gender is a social construct" has been drained of a lot of its productivity. reading gender trouble was p crucial for me too but judith butler has herself gone beyond this way of thinking. her recent writing about tahrir square about spaces of appearance, the requirements of bodies. i think its important to understand that the social writing of bodies rewrites bodies themselves. a more radical reading of "one is not born a woman."

gender and sexuality need to be destroyed.

asexuality is the future.

feel compelled to post itt but I'm not sure I can be more explicit than I was before tbh

that said: "there's a clear, scientifically established connection between testosterone and competitive behavior in males" demands citation

this case hinges on the sorts of decisions that children are legally permitted to take ultimate responsibility for and authority over. at present, in most western societies, this = "none"

this hasn't been true for the last 10 to 20 years btw, US and UK laws to my knowledge have enshrined certain rights for children in relation to for example family law

how come nobody ever asks, is it deterwomened? think about it

― still driving steen, banning deez, gettin my dick xhuxked (Curt1s Stephens), Sunday, April 4, 2010 4:39 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I LOVE GENITAL GINGERBREADS

well, here's a general overview type thing that touches on the subject in a number of ways: http://www.shoreline.edu/psparks/researchnotes/articles/testosteroneaggression.pdf

also, for the sake of o_O the study of a very dubious study as coughed up by the internet: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20110311/Testosterone-associated-with-dominant-behavior-and-competitive-success-in-attracting-women.aspx

Findings from a recent study at Wayne State University give a clearer understanding of the links between testosterone and human mating behavior, and how testosterone is associated with dominance and competitive success when men battle for the attention of an attractive woman.

The study engaged pairs of men in a seven-minute videotaped competition for the attention of an attractive female undergraduate. Pre-competition testosterone levels were positively associated with men's dominance behaviors in the mate competition-including how assertive they were and how much they "took control" of the conversation-and with how much the woman indicated that she "clicked" with each of the men.

all apologies for the way that study was set up and described ("an attractive woman" ffs), but the observations and conclusions seem potentially valid nonetheless.