no boys allowed in the room!!!!

no boys allowed

My take on the matter is very different than c#s. This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

You exercise a lot for a ghost.

Hey guys. I was drunk when I posted, but my point was more 'what has that got to do with women's issues and this thread?' and less 'eeeeek a boy in my thread'. It seems that the latter point is all anyone's been talking about?

Personally, I've always felt that 'no boys allowed' meant 'no boys allowed', but (unless there is rapid mod clean-up I don't see) the ilx boys who have entered the thread are usually fairly respectful, and disappear again after a brief exchange, so I've been okay with it. However, the fact that I don't need a safe space doesn't mean nobody needs one, and I have nothing to lose by a thread being designated as such.

The whole fallout from the thing has actually been more uncomfortable than the initial cringe that inspired the "can you not do this, please" to be honest, so now I wish I had never said anything to start with, but isn't that always the way ILX goes?

But isn't that also the way that women are trained not to speak up, or speak out or be assertive? have the result be that saying something will generate 10x the hassle of not saying something, and pretty soon women learn to stop saying anything.

Express yourself, or bite the bullet, either way you lose.

"eek there's a boy in the room" makes me think of when I lived in a girls' dorm in college and the little old janitor had to yell "MAN ON FLOOR!" before he went the door from the stairwell, every single time. Like we would all otherwise be running around in our nighties or something.

If we have to have a man on this thread, can it be this one kthxbye

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/74009304/Thom+Yorke+thomyorke.jpg

"MAN ON FLOOR" = there's a bit about this in Infinite Jest iirc, when Don is doing the rounds at Ennet House

This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

tbh, Christine, I actually feel more comfortable in mixed groups, too! Largely because I am way more worried about what women think of me than about the opinions of the men I come into contact with, whether strangers or acquaintances or friends. It's kind of why I emphasised that a women-only group talking about gender stuff doesn't mean people tailor to a "non-male" audience but to a "female" one - it isn't a neutral space and it's certainly not without performance or assumption. Although the other connotation of 'safe space' can in some cases help to mitigate that. Nevertheless I still really appreciate my experience of women-only safe spaces, because those shifts in dialogue and tone and content, and the experiences and interaction they enable, are really valuable to me.

i don't know if it's necessary, but i just wanted to say again, i don't think safe spaces exist, though i am invested in women-only spaces.

oh yeah, no "safe space" is actually a safe space - i don't think any is even completely successful at being a "safe space"! - that is very very worth saying. though i still think they're a useful practice.

Yeah, it's like "safe sex" what it really means is Safer Space. But more the idea that certain problems will be at least acknowledged and an attempt made to deal with them?

Not all Safe Spaces are all female either and not all All Female spaces make any pretense at being safe. I guess I was conflating a bunch of ideas I didn't really have the right to impose on what this is, whatever it is.

i mean, just because there's no such thing as a safe space doesn't mean there isn't a value in making spaces safer for various categories of people! that's why i don't even know if i should have bothered saying that; it was sort of hairsplitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwnCIFnQlzg

i think it's worth saying, though, hs, because otherwise you get this situation of e.g. "in this thing you claim is a safe space people were competitive with one another about experience-sharing and i felt unheard and unrecognised and devalued as a fellow human and as such i judge that the safe space has FAILED FOREVER and it is a terrible idea and you are all terrible" -- stating that something is a "safe space" is an agreement to try together, it's not a promise of perfection, and that has to be recognised.

OI

Ironically it was in the context of places that maintain a rlly strict safe(r) space policy - like Shakesville - that I was able to discover many of these things, which describe or explain mine own behaviour. Like first encountering the idea of what a "trigger" is, not I'm not just insane that I freak out and go into fight or flight panic reactions when people make e.g. rape jokes, that this is a real thing among ppl who have experienced the things I have. And going through this whole thing of learning and trying to grow beyond, and examining bad shit I've done - and seeing that there are things which explain - not justify, but *explain* - Safe Spaces have been very useful for that.

But then you have to go back into the real world and deal with that very behaviour you find literally crazy-making when you try to say "can you please not do this."

But a thread like this is rlly helpful to withdraw to. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

^^

I would like to go back to something Rrob said in this thread ages ago which I think dovetails in here nicely now:

"Undoing what we've been taught - to be good, to accommodate, to hold our tongues, to fear - is truly difficult and requires daily practice, i've found, and a supportive community of women and men, which, for many women, can be really hard to find. But i think we know in our bones what our power is, and when we can't express it, that blockage kills our spirits slowly, whether we know it or not. And i'm just like, at this point, fuck that. "

Also, I'm a little sad, though I dont object and I think its understandable, that this thread's turned into talking about what we should talk about, instead of discussing health issues, men, hair products and music etc like we used to on here :/

I am sorry if it feels like this thread has turned into "what should we talk about" - I don't actually think that's been the focus of this recent conversation so much as "should we let boys talk on this thread too" which is not the same question.

Although I suppose it's inevitable that the thread fractures and turns into half a dozen different threads focusing on different things (some for gender issues that let boys participate, some purely women only with no political meaning to be discussed) it is something that I find kind of sad.

That one of the things I found most positive about this thread and its sandbox sister was how inclusive it was -by accident or design. That because it was ~the only one~ all kinds of women ended up here, not just women who wanted to talk about nail varnish, *or* women who just wanted to talk about politics. So that there was this great mixture of subjects, both healthcare and and hair products, and, better yet, a great *mixture* of people and viewpoints - this created friction obviously but it also created an actual dynamic, diverse sharing of viewpoints so that a lot more of the female human experience has been brought to attention than you usually get to see in one place.

It's sad, Rrobyn's quote, because I sometimes feel like ILX (or maybe just the internet of the past 5 years) actually taught me to accommodate, to hold my tongue out of *fear* which was a lesson that 30 years in the ~real world~ never managed to bash my head with.

I like that quote, yet.

I am really quite sad over the way a lot of these discussions have gone (and are continuing to go) on ILX. I just read through the whole new gender-related thread that Emily started and feel like I have a lot to say but am too afraid to post there now. Sorry - I'm just ranting and think I should stick to what I said yesterday about not participating. What WCC said itt about having those discussions with genderless socks would be a pretty interesting experiment though, that's for sure.

That's too bad, because I feel like we're finally getting somewhere. First it is necessary to stop letting people say, "Won't someone please think of all the nice men I personally know who didn't individually choose to be so privileged" as if that's an actual contribution to a conversation about gender, though.

Eh? I didn't say that, someone else did. Though it would be pretty hilarious - and how quickly (or not?) I think ppl would suss out the gender if not the identity. Discussion OF gender is the one place where gender of poster becomes pretty salient in a way it doesnt in discussion of film or music or food.

Oh - it was Zora, sorry.

I don't mind being mistaken for Zora, she's v v clever. :)

I'm feeling a real desire right now to talk about hair dye or something v v stereotypically feminine, just to kind of try to balance. I've been trying to grow out the super red but I might have to do job interviews soonish and should probably at least try to normalise my hair to 1 colour red instead of about 6.

Yeah well that'll teach me. Just when I feel I need the company of mine own sex as reassurance, putting on some fake display of "femininity" fools no one. Back to my lair.

it's been a while since i dyed my hair, but yeah, normalizing when you are in a position when you're supposed to look "normal" is prob. a good idea. good luck!

like i literally stopped dying my hair around the age when other women my age started going gray, and dying one's hair took on different connotations than doing so as a teen or in one's 20s.

you might want to chalk it up to end-of-workday work push instead of assuming we don't care!

i've recently become a fan of hair dye, namely this 'semi-permanent gloss' thing that my hair stylist uses for my hair - it fades out really slowly and doesn't leave roots - kind of amazing! i recommend! and possibly okay to put over multi-coloured hair because it's less of a chemical process? prob check with hair stylist on that one, as obv i'm no expert!
xps

my work day is just beginning!

despite being really very interested in reading what everyone has to say on the massively complex topic of discussion here recently on this thread and the new other threads in the past couple of days, i haven't been able to dive in, as i've been busy and would like to give the topic more of my attention/focus than i've been able.

xp - time zones oh yeah those! lol i was being time-zone exclusionary

nah, i just don't have a typical 9 to 5.

I'm unemployed and in a different timezone so I dunno when ppl are at!

Actually a non permanent gloss is a good idea for an interview but I should probably test it beforehand.

And yeah I get what you mean Sarahel, I grew my hair out in my mid 30s to see what my natural colour was just as I was getting some treys - but I just got bored of hair that was always the same.

EST rules PST drools! ;)
xp

Treys? Frets!

FFS iPhone GREYS.

ha, i was just thinking about that yesterday, too though - looking at Whole Foods' shelf of hair dyes, thinking i'm maybe bored of my hair color.

A friend of mine bleached her punk-rock spike job a messy whitish-grey blonde. Kind of jeal just for the DGAF-ness of it.

I have 2 whole boxes of super punky red which I was using to do occasional streaks but making my whole hair that colour, much as I'm tempted, would be a Very Bad Idea for interviewing.

I also have still not had a haircut either despite saying forever that I was gonna do something about the straggle. I have no right to laugh at Thom Yorke's poor hair choices really.

i dyed my hair a much brighter color recently and wouldn't go back unless someone ripped the hair dye from my dead desiccated hands. it's the little boost i need to make it through my otherwise dull days.

also recommended: wigs! don't knock it/dismiss it til you've tried it.

wigs are awesome! I got two in the past couple years: one this totally OTT bright red beehive that I bought for a musical project, and another chin-length black one.

I was really really into wigs in my early 30s, I had some great ones - but I find them too warm and sweaty for use any more.

you also have beautiful long hair, iirc? i don't have a lot of hair, so i can wear it short or wear it short. or wear a wig. i would like an expensive nice one someday, but for now the beverly johnson collection will have to do.

I have v v long hair but it's too ragged (I don't trim it often enough) to be "beautiful" hair. Its length is mainly due to laziness and fear of bad haircuts.

I used to have shorter hair, and had all kinds of exotic wigs for going onstage - it's nice to have the variety of short hair / long wigs. Wigs are so much fun to play with, especially when you're performing - as it sounds like you've been experiencing!

yeah
it was really fun!

I found it was almost like wearing a mask (without compromising yr ability to perform w yr face) so it gave me the freedom to be much bolder / act differently. Did you find it made it easier?

Hard to know since I don't really have any reference point tbh! It definitely felt different than standing up in front of a class.

my hair is really thick, and i realized that there are things that I can't get away with with a wig (because the hair is thinner/there is less of it) than w/my natural hair.

Are you gonna try to do anything like that again?

is that a question for me or LL?