no boys allowed in the room!!!!

If I know there's a group of men hoovering around and eavesdropping then I'd rather invite them into the discussion than know they're out there forming opinions but not allowed to participate. Again - and I feel the needs to say this only so I won't be attacked - I'm just trying to explain why the idea is tough for me to find value in personally.

WCC - please don't start. I made a point of saying that respect that other people find it useful. I'm only trying to explain why it's tough for me to relate to that. :/

the problem i have is when is the last time a male ilx poster did that. if it was like that generally i would not read or post here.

x-post I never said it was awful.

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Starting out lighthearted would have been fine if dudes respected it, but when they don't, it does force anyone who cares to get a little heavier on the topic than we might have liked. And that "policing" job is BORING AND A BUMMER, which is ANOTHER reason I resent men making it necessary.

― one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:40 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just p. much agree w/ Laurel 100% here. See also: some thread on the Sandbox, I think, where I was offhandedly like "Here is a thing women experience!" and it turned into a forum for men to make sure that we were aware that women did not actually have that experience, and they should know, because they like, know some women. Gross.

disclaimer: I'm still getting all of my bookmarks together for this new login, so I'm out of the loop on a lot of threads I used to follow so I have no idea what the underlying issue to which some of you are referring is.

Please can you not use that name. How many more times do I have to ask that?

And I was *trying* to use humour to deflect a situation, but you want to read that as me "attacking" you? This is when I can't win, either way. If I say something straight out, my sharpness is going to be read as the wrong tone. If I try to make a joke of it, that's considered the same way. Anything I do, if you're going to read it automatically as an "attack" there's not much point in continuing the conversation.

It's fairly obvious from Just1ne's contributions to our many lovely clusterfuck threads that her problem is actually a personal one with me. And she is perfectly entitled to feel that way and express it however she wants, but it is fast becoming mutual.

the thing is, it's not like the reason i can't stand you is somehow outside of all this: the reason i can't stand you is BECAUSE of all this. and i'll say it again, because you probably didn't read it properly the first time: if you want people to read all your posts and interpret them as you meant them to be interpreted, it's a good idea to do the same for others.

I'm sorry! I actually just went "OMG FUCK I USED HER NAME" and came back to apologize. It was an accident. I'm really sorry.

fixed

Thank you, mod. :)

OK, thanks, mod and ENBB.

this is a hard thing to admit, but one of the reasons i like the idea of women's-only spaces is that i don't trust myself to necessarily say what i'm thinking on subjects dear to my heart in the presence of men. because of some deeply-ingrained desire for male approval. i wouldn't be surprised if this is part of why, say, Amanda and harbl don't see the need for such spaces, as they don't strike me as being much afflicted with this problem.

^^^lol things i will deny in the future if you ever cast them up to me :/

haha no! i have a horrible time saying what i mean, especially regarding things i care about!

i guess i mean more specifically some real demureness i experience when it comes to real-talking about what i would loosely term feminist stuff because i anticipate (unfairly sometimes) a lack of recognition/understanding from men. and i want to be liked, essentially.

(WCC, I webmailed u, in case that's not an account that you check on the reg.)

Me too. WRT things I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with or around men though I think that's precisely why I don't personally find the need for a women-only thread. It's not women-only in my mind since I know men would be reading. I'm still not going to discuss or say certain things if I know they're reading but not participating. That may just be me though.

x-posts It's one of those things I have had to accept for a long time. There are some people who are *never* going to like me, and there is no way I can ever make them happy, so I'm not going to try.

There are people who have had such completely opposite and different experiences that they are never going to see eye to eye, and they are never going to *grok* the other one's expectations enough to understand one another's motivations.

In some cases, one can try to bash through it and reach an acceptance or toleration, but in others, it's so mutual it's just impossible. Just accept that it is mutual, and not bash your head in by trying.

horseshoe, it's almost like the opposite for me. That I don't seek male approval (I spent so long in male dominated spaces that I became "one of the boys" for some time, we talked about this on Sandbox) but still, operating in a space with men *does* change my behaviour, sometimes in that reflexive cringe of defensiveness that is completely the result of being on the receiving end of gender based violence. Different reaction, but same problem.

Lauren, actually, this account is a total sock that isn't even attached to an email address! I'll DM you a real working email address.

I hear you on that, hs. My physiological cues for whose approval I care about and whose I prefer to have but don't feel the need to pine for are totally fucked up. Like dudes on ilx are my peers/bros/friends, they can like me or not like me but it's not going to come down to one post on tt so I can hack it.

But like I said in the oth thread, last week I got sick to my stomach b/c I voluntarily alienated a total stranger on the internet who is probably an asshole, but it was in the context of a dating site where I'm supposed to be working on ATTRACTING MEN, and making them WANT TO BE WITH ME, so it gave me the panics for a second. :( This is completely backwards!

But that is why w's-only space is good for me.

I never used to get that "sick to the stomach" feeling, I used to be FEARLESS but too much discussing stuff on the internet later, I get that sick to the stomach feeling constantly, whenever these issues come up in a space that is not all women.

women-only thread, please

I am actually going to get off the internet and read a book. Funnily enough, I was going to read "Bitch" by Elizabeth Wurtzel which I took out of the library with the specific intention that it would piss me off (in an amusing way) but I'm not sure that's such a good idea now.

some xposts i guess

the reason i like having a "no boys allowed" thread is because i think it is fun to have a no boys allowed thread.

it doesn't fit with my image of a 'safe space' bcz i feel like a safe space for sharing experiences is rather like horseshoe's - i believe that when women are talking about some (usually gender-related) stuff the style of discourse is different when men are present and known to be present, because people always tailor our discourse to our audience, we self-censor or adopt braggadocio or expect certain comebacks/repercussions to statements or feel uncomfortable or feel more comfortable. so in a women-only safe space, you find women shaping the discourse toward a female audience before even shaping the discussion to take into account female interlocutors. and this is a super interesting mode of discourse! and v valuable when you are dealing with stuff like sharing experiences, where the presence of a female audience, as much as the absence of a male one, often shapes the content. not always, because not all women have the same discursive style or the same aims from discussion or etc etc etc, but often.

this thread has a mixed-gender audience but the interlocutors are female, and as such it's neither fish nor fowl. i like it! let's keep it.

That is a really brilliant post, C sharp.

When I *know* that someone dislikes me, it's really hard for me not to feel defensive. I am also aware that my defensiveness reads as aggressiveness to many people, which just reinforces the dislike. And that's an awfully vicious circle to break. So I don't know how to say, I wish that horseshoe had started the new new women only thread. I might just stay here instead.

C-sharp's post was great.

I will probably just refrain from taking part in most of these discussions from now on because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts) and doing so only makes me feel really alienated and I wind up stressing myself out about them in the end. I really think it's best for me if I just post about cute animals and boils. I wind up worrying about these threads needlessly because honestly, it's the internet and who gives a fuck? Anyway, I'm really glad that you guys have that space though. I hope it continues to be useful.

haha "cute animals and boils"
Sometimes I feel like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg
the only winning move is not to play.
Or that my energy's best focused elsewhere. I only have so much ability to get en fuego in a day, personal shortcoming, and I want to use it to create my own kooky fantasy land. I know that sounds silly but I think ultimately that's what makes me happy.

I spent a bunch of time looking at xojane the other day, and reading this one awesome lady's posts about her struggles with body image. Which, I have told you guys my one-person-level solution to that already, is to not be a raw dog materialist and idk wait for the singularity where we achieve some bodiless consciousness event horizon? Which I know won't happen but it seems about as realistic as me ever being thin and HONESTLY a lot more fun to think about (see: fantasy land). This lady was saying she lost a bunch of weight by eating differently but now can't eat anything without having some kind of feeling or guilt attached to the food. Which (not a brag here my god I'm such a slovenly and artless weirdo) I don't have and definitely don't ever want. Like I think spending too much time around those kind of ideas will just fuck me up (not to say those ideas are bad or shouldn't be shared, god bless everyone for sharing in anything in their experiences). That's why I read cooking blogs and safety blogs and not issue blogs! Not even just feminist blogs, like years ago I read the Consumerist all the time, and had a dream about why Best Buy was just so bad and awful, really fired up emotions in the dream. I woke up and thought, I need to fucking stop reading that right now. Best Buy's being shitty, Ralph Lauren shopped a lady to have a waist smaller than her neck, I can't do anything about it, might as well enjoy life elsewhere.

Good lord woman, I love you.

I am very sleepy and going to take a nap. Later I will respond and tell you precisely why I relate to that post so hard.

:)

because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts)
not true, i said the basically same thing upthread, but i only said it once and not very emphatically.

i don't engage with things that make me feel bad (as abbott was describing) and it works out pretty well. if that means that i live in a fantasy land, fine. i live in a fantasy land. you'll know you're there because i will be there too. we can talk about music/other noises and cooking and plants and animals and tiny parts of words and the elements and how raw nature is. see you around there sometime!

no boys allowed

My take on the matter is very different than c#s. This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

You exercise a lot for a ghost.

Hey guys. I was drunk when I posted, but my point was more 'what has that got to do with women's issues and this thread?' and less 'eeeeek a boy in my thread'. It seems that the latter point is all anyone's been talking about?

Personally, I've always felt that 'no boys allowed' meant 'no boys allowed', but (unless there is rapid mod clean-up I don't see) the ilx boys who have entered the thread are usually fairly respectful, and disappear again after a brief exchange, so I've been okay with it. However, the fact that I don't need a safe space doesn't mean nobody needs one, and I have nothing to lose by a thread being designated as such.

The whole fallout from the thing has actually been more uncomfortable than the initial cringe that inspired the "can you not do this, please" to be honest, so now I wish I had never said anything to start with, but isn't that always the way ILX goes?

But isn't that also the way that women are trained not to speak up, or speak out or be assertive? have the result be that saying something will generate 10x the hassle of not saying something, and pretty soon women learn to stop saying anything.

Express yourself, or bite the bullet, either way you lose.

"eek there's a boy in the room" makes me think of when I lived in a girls' dorm in college and the little old janitor had to yell "MAN ON FLOOR!" before he went the door from the stairwell, every single time. Like we would all otherwise be running around in our nighties or something.

If we have to have a man on this thread, can it be this one kthxbye

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/74009304/Thom+Yorke+thomyorke.jpg

"MAN ON FLOOR" = there's a bit about this in Infinite Jest iirc, when Don is doing the rounds at Ennet House

This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone in the current group, but I feel much more comfortable around mixed groups and men than I ever do around women. I feel less judged and more accepted by men, and I feel like I can speak my mind more around men. I really hate feeling this way, and I hope that I'm not being a self-hating woman by feeling this way, because I don't dislike women.

tbh, Christine, I actually feel more comfortable in mixed groups, too! Largely because I am way more worried about what women think of me than about the opinions of the men I come into contact with, whether strangers or acquaintances or friends. It's kind of why I emphasised that a women-only group talking about gender stuff doesn't mean people tailor to a "non-male" audience but to a "female" one - it isn't a neutral space and it's certainly not without performance or assumption. Although the other connotation of 'safe space' can in some cases help to mitigate that. Nevertheless I still really appreciate my experience of women-only safe spaces, because those shifts in dialogue and tone and content, and the experiences and interaction they enable, are really valuable to me.

i don't know if it's necessary, but i just wanted to say again, i don't think safe spaces exist, though i am invested in women-only spaces.

oh yeah, no "safe space" is actually a safe space - i don't think any is even completely successful at being a "safe space"! - that is very very worth saying. though i still think they're a useful practice.

Yeah, it's like "safe sex" what it really means is Safer Space. But more the idea that certain problems will be at least acknowledged and an attempt made to deal with them?

Not all Safe Spaces are all female either and not all All Female spaces make any pretense at being safe. I guess I was conflating a bunch of ideas I didn't really have the right to impose on what this is, whatever it is.

i mean, just because there's no such thing as a safe space doesn't mean there isn't a value in making spaces safer for various categories of people! that's why i don't even know if i should have bothered saying that; it was sort of hairsplitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwnCIFnQlzg

i think it's worth saying, though, hs, because otherwise you get this situation of e.g. "in this thing you claim is a safe space people were competitive with one another about experience-sharing and i felt unheard and unrecognised and devalued as a fellow human and as such i judge that the safe space has FAILED FOREVER and it is a terrible idea and you are all terrible" -- stating that something is a "safe space" is an agreement to try together, it's not a promise of perfection, and that has to be recognised.

OI

Ironically it was in the context of places that maintain a rlly strict safe(r) space policy - like Shakesville - that I was able to discover many of these things, which describe or explain mine own behaviour. Like first encountering the idea of what a "trigger" is, not I'm not just insane that I freak out and go into fight or flight panic reactions when people make e.g. rape jokes, that this is a real thing among ppl who have experienced the things I have. And going through this whole thing of learning and trying to grow beyond, and examining bad shit I've done - and seeing that there are things which explain - not justify, but *explain* - Safe Spaces have been very useful for that.

But then you have to go back into the real world and deal with that very behaviour you find literally crazy-making when you try to say "can you please not do this."

But a thread like this is rlly helpful to withdraw to. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

It doesn't mean everyone has to agree but it does mean that most ppl are willing to acknowledge that they are real questions or at least worthy of debate.

^^

I would like to go back to something Rrob said in this thread ages ago which I think dovetails in here nicely now:

"Undoing what we've been taught - to be good, to accommodate, to hold our tongues, to fear - is truly difficult and requires daily practice, i've found, and a supportive community of women and men, which, for many women, can be really hard to find. But i think we know in our bones what our power is, and when we can't express it, that blockage kills our spirits slowly, whether we know it or not. And i'm just like, at this point, fuck that. "

Also, I'm a little sad, though I dont object and I think its understandable, that this thread's turned into talking about what we should talk about, instead of discussing health issues, men, hair products and music etc like we used to on here :/

I am sorry if it feels like this thread has turned into "what should we talk about" - I don't actually think that's been the focus of this recent conversation so much as "should we let boys talk on this thread too" which is not the same question.

Although I suppose it's inevitable that the thread fractures and turns into half a dozen different threads focusing on different things (some for gender issues that let boys participate, some purely women only with no political meaning to be discussed) it is something that I find kind of sad.

That one of the things I found most positive about this thread and its sandbox sister was how inclusive it was -by accident or design. That because it was ~the only one~ all kinds of women ended up here, not just women who wanted to talk about nail varnish, *or* women who just wanted to talk about politics. So that there was this great mixture of subjects, both healthcare and and hair products, and, better yet, a great *mixture* of people and viewpoints - this created friction obviously but it also created an actual dynamic, diverse sharing of viewpoints so that a lot more of the female human experience has been brought to attention than you usually get to see in one place.

It's sad, Rrobyn's quote, because I sometimes feel like ILX (or maybe just the internet of the past 5 years) actually taught me to accommodate, to hold my tongue out of *fear* which was a lesson that 30 years in the ~real world~ never managed to bash my head with.

I like that quote, yet.

I am really quite sad over the way a lot of these discussions have gone (and are continuing to go) on ILX. I just read through the whole new gender-related thread that Emily started and feel like I have a lot to say but am too afraid to post there now. Sorry - I'm just ranting and think I should stick to what I said yesterday about not participating. What WCC said itt about having those discussions with genderless socks would be a pretty interesting experiment though, that's for sure.