no boys allowed in the room!!!!

I think at one point I was surprised that people were objecting to men posting itt because I thought it was started in a light-hearted NO BOYS ALLOWED! sort of girls-only clubhouse sort of way and not in a serious safe space way. The safe space thing is sort of weird to me because it's not like men can't read the thread. I do respect the fact that other people feel such a thread is/would be useful although since it would never truly be women-only, and because I don't really feel an overwhelming need for such a space anyway, it's not a huge deal for me one way or the other.

it totally did start in that way; i just think it's become different things to different people over time.

I was actually gonna start a "Female Gaze / Queer Gaze" to have pictures of hott dudes and also discussion of hott dudes and societal conceptions of male hottness, but done in a way which *assumed* a female or queer gaze to start with. Not that straight men would be excluded, not at all, but that they would be exposed to the topsy-turvy experience (that all women and queer men face every day) of experiencing a world that does not cater exclusively their gaze and their desires. Because I think that would 1) be fun and gratifying and entertaining to look at/discuss boys and their hottness but 2) might also be an interesting social experiment and everyone might learn something.

But that is not the same as having an actual safe space where you do not have to deal with the fear of having to deal with ~all the awful stuff that Men On The Interweb Do~ (yes, even our nice, sweet ILX men who are princes compared to the wilds of other internet forums) or having to deal with that constant, reflexive fear that I feel like I live under. I get that many of you think this makes me an awful human being because I have this need to have a place to retreat to, but, y'know, I can't tell other people how to interpret my actions in ways that aren't automatically totally awful.

And the problem isn't so much men reading, it really is men who feel the *need* to stick their oar in, even when they've been told not to.

It's almost like, I can't stop people from looking at me, but I sure as hell can stop them from shouting at me, or touching me.

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Starting out lighthearted would have been fine if dudes respected it, but when they don't, it does force anyone who cares to get a little heavier on the topic than we might have liked. And that "policing" job is BORING AND A BUMMER, which is ANOTHER reason I resent men making it necessary.

This is now feeling awful, and even though I have typed out about 5 replies to that other thread, and then deleted them because I thought they would be interpreted the wrong way and ~cause trouble~, I still feel like I've made everything go horrible and wrong and got everything I didn't want to have to deal with, just through trying to say, in a polite and non-confrontational way, "can you please not do this thing, this is why it bothers me?"

are you on 77? there is a "girls and gays ws too" thread there. but also, you could start a woman-only thread with that post and see what happens from there? i don't think there's any such thing as a safe space on the internet or in the world for that matter, and yes, men might still be reading it, but i still think it would be cool? i'd be down; it seems like Laurel and Jenny would also be down?

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Also, THIS, over and over and over again.

Laurel you always manage to express things so perfectly, and succinctly, and smartly, and also in a way that doesn't come across as blunt and sharp as I know that I do.

Please can you just keep saying them, and I will just say "cosign what Laurel said" and keep my big ugly mouth shut.

I am not on 77. Given the history of 77 and stuff that went down in the Bad Old Days of ILX, I would not feel comfortable being on 77.

I know, I know, everyone can tell me "but it's not like you think it is, at all!" to their heart's content, but it's like... if you have experienced concentrated nastiness from certain people in the open part of a forum, just every instinct I have says "do not go into a closed off part with them" same as, if someone pulls your hair in the classroom with everyone there, there's no way you're gonna follow them into the toilets. It's just not a good idea.

oh i didn't mean to suggest you should join 77 if you object to it!

i want to start a rolling feminism thread for anyone who wants to participate and a rolling women-only thread but i am feeling very slow and uninspired as to how to start them.

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Disclaimer - I don't think anyone is wrong for feeling this way but that is something I can't relate to at all.

I want to hear everyone's voices/opinions on all topics - I think that's what makes conversations/threads interesting. If someone said the same thing about women's voices or posts on a thread or topic on ILX I'd be hugely pissed off. I just seems weirdly exclusionary and unfair to me to ask that of men in a thread.

i would put neither of them on 77, if that wasn't already clear!

xp

I do think you should start them, horseshoe, because you are so generally beloved around here it will not attract the automatic flybuzz of disapproval. :)

Just to clarify - I'm not opposed to people starting as women-only space and respect that to many people it would be a helpful and necessary thread.

but....what is this thread then>?

idk - I'm confused too

slumber party ouija time

but....what is this thread then>?

― high five delivery device (Abbbottt), Sunday, February 12, 2012 12:52 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know! i don't know?

One last thing - I can see enormous value in irl truly women only groups but a women only thread on ILX seems like it would be like having a women only meeting group with a bunch of men eavesdropping outside the door. I have a hard time with that idea. It sort of negates the women-only part entirely for me.

Yeah, OMG, teh poor mens, it's not like they don't have ~the rest of the interweb~ to make their "go make me a sandwich" jokes or butt in for the 8 millionth time "but someone saying you're attractive is a ~compliment~!!!11" when you're trying to talk about street harassment and how it makes you feel.

It's just so awful and exclusionary that we have one tiny little thread on one tiny little messageboard where we do not automatically have to deal with that.

If I know there's a group of men hoovering around and eavesdropping then I'd rather invite them into the discussion than know they're out there forming opinions but not allowed to participate. Again - and I feel the needs to say this only so I won't be attacked - I'm just trying to explain why the idea is tough for me to find value in personally.

WCC - please don't start. I made a point of saying that respect that other people find it useful. I'm only trying to explain why it's tough for me to relate to that. :/

the problem i have is when is the last time a male ilx poster did that. if it was like that generally i would not read or post here.

x-post I never said it was awful.

For me the point is not that content is secret, so I don't mind men reading it. I just don't want to hear their voices/opinions on every single topic esp if it is in fact about gender issues that I don't feel like having explained away or having excuses made for, because they have the rest of the world/internet for that.

Starting out lighthearted would have been fine if dudes respected it, but when they don't, it does force anyone who cares to get a little heavier on the topic than we might have liked. And that "policing" job is BORING AND A BUMMER, which is ANOTHER reason I resent men making it necessary.

― one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:40 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I just p. much agree w/ Laurel 100% here. See also: some thread on the Sandbox, I think, where I was offhandedly like "Here is a thing women experience!" and it turned into a forum for men to make sure that we were aware that women did not actually have that experience, and they should know, because they like, know some women. Gross.

disclaimer: I'm still getting all of my bookmarks together for this new login, so I'm out of the loop on a lot of threads I used to follow so I have no idea what the underlying issue to which some of you are referring is.

Please can you not use that name. How many more times do I have to ask that?

And I was *trying* to use humour to deflect a situation, but you want to read that as me "attacking" you? This is when I can't win, either way. If I say something straight out, my sharpness is going to be read as the wrong tone. If I try to make a joke of it, that's considered the same way. Anything I do, if you're going to read it automatically as an "attack" there's not much point in continuing the conversation.

It's fairly obvious from Just1ne's contributions to our many lovely clusterfuck threads that her problem is actually a personal one with me. And she is perfectly entitled to feel that way and express it however she wants, but it is fast becoming mutual.

the thing is, it's not like the reason i can't stand you is somehow outside of all this: the reason i can't stand you is BECAUSE of all this. and i'll say it again, because you probably didn't read it properly the first time: if you want people to read all your posts and interpret them as you meant them to be interpreted, it's a good idea to do the same for others.

I'm sorry! I actually just went "OMG FUCK I USED HER NAME" and came back to apologize. It was an accident. I'm really sorry.

fixed

Thank you, mod. :)

OK, thanks, mod and ENBB.

this is a hard thing to admit, but one of the reasons i like the idea of women's-only spaces is that i don't trust myself to necessarily say what i'm thinking on subjects dear to my heart in the presence of men. because of some deeply-ingrained desire for male approval. i wouldn't be surprised if this is part of why, say, Amanda and harbl don't see the need for such spaces, as they don't strike me as being much afflicted with this problem.

^^^lol things i will deny in the future if you ever cast them up to me :/

haha no! i have a horrible time saying what i mean, especially regarding things i care about!

i guess i mean more specifically some real demureness i experience when it comes to real-talking about what i would loosely term feminist stuff because i anticipate (unfairly sometimes) a lack of recognition/understanding from men. and i want to be liked, essentially.

(WCC, I webmailed u, in case that's not an account that you check on the reg.)

Me too. WRT things I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with or around men though I think that's precisely why I don't personally find the need for a women-only thread. It's not women-only in my mind since I know men would be reading. I'm still not going to discuss or say certain things if I know they're reading but not participating. That may just be me though.

x-posts It's one of those things I have had to accept for a long time. There are some people who are *never* going to like me, and there is no way I can ever make them happy, so I'm not going to try.

There are people who have had such completely opposite and different experiences that they are never going to see eye to eye, and they are never going to *grok* the other one's expectations enough to understand one another's motivations.

In some cases, one can try to bash through it and reach an acceptance or toleration, but in others, it's so mutual it's just impossible. Just accept that it is mutual, and not bash your head in by trying.

horseshoe, it's almost like the opposite for me. That I don't seek male approval (I spent so long in male dominated spaces that I became "one of the boys" for some time, we talked about this on Sandbox) but still, operating in a space with men *does* change my behaviour, sometimes in that reflexive cringe of defensiveness that is completely the result of being on the receiving end of gender based violence. Different reaction, but same problem.

Lauren, actually, this account is a total sock that isn't even attached to an email address! I'll DM you a real working email address.

I hear you on that, hs. My physiological cues for whose approval I care about and whose I prefer to have but don't feel the need to pine for are totally fucked up. Like dudes on ilx are my peers/bros/friends, they can like me or not like me but it's not going to come down to one post on tt so I can hack it.

But like I said in the oth thread, last week I got sick to my stomach b/c I voluntarily alienated a total stranger on the internet who is probably an asshole, but it was in the context of a dating site where I'm supposed to be working on ATTRACTING MEN, and making them WANT TO BE WITH ME, so it gave me the panics for a second. :( This is completely backwards!

But that is why w's-only space is good for me.

I never used to get that "sick to the stomach" feeling, I used to be FEARLESS but too much discussing stuff on the internet later, I get that sick to the stomach feeling constantly, whenever these issues come up in a space that is not all women.

women-only thread, please

I am actually going to get off the internet and read a book. Funnily enough, I was going to read "Bitch" by Elizabeth Wurtzel which I took out of the library with the specific intention that it would piss me off (in an amusing way) but I'm not sure that's such a good idea now.

some xposts i guess

the reason i like having a "no boys allowed" thread is because i think it is fun to have a no boys allowed thread.

it doesn't fit with my image of a 'safe space' bcz i feel like a safe space for sharing experiences is rather like horseshoe's - i believe that when women are talking about some (usually gender-related) stuff the style of discourse is different when men are present and known to be present, because people always tailor our discourse to our audience, we self-censor or adopt braggadocio or expect certain comebacks/repercussions to statements or feel uncomfortable or feel more comfortable. so in a women-only safe space, you find women shaping the discourse toward a female audience before even shaping the discussion to take into account female interlocutors. and this is a super interesting mode of discourse! and v valuable when you are dealing with stuff like sharing experiences, where the presence of a female audience, as much as the absence of a male one, often shapes the content. not always, because not all women have the same discursive style or the same aims from discussion or etc etc etc, but often.

this thread has a mixed-gender audience but the interlocutors are female, and as such it's neither fish nor fowl. i like it! let's keep it.

That is a really brilliant post, C sharp.

When I *know* that someone dislikes me, it's really hard for me not to feel defensive. I am also aware that my defensiveness reads as aggressiveness to many people, which just reinforces the dislike. And that's an awfully vicious circle to break. So I don't know how to say, I wish that horseshoe had started the new new women only thread. I might just stay here instead.

C-sharp's post was great.

I will probably just refrain from taking part in most of these discussions from now on because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts) and doing so only makes me feel really alienated and I wind up stressing myself out about them in the end. I really think it's best for me if I just post about cute animals and boils. I wind up worrying about these threads needlessly because honestly, it's the internet and who gives a fuck? Anyway, I'm really glad that you guys have that space though. I hope it continues to be useful.

haha "cute animals and boils"
Sometimes I feel like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg
the only winning move is not to play.
Or that my energy's best focused elsewhere. I only have so much ability to get en fuego in a day, personal shortcoming, and I want to use it to create my own kooky fantasy land. I know that sounds silly but I think ultimately that's what makes me happy.

I spent a bunch of time looking at xojane the other day, and reading this one awesome lady's posts about her struggles with body image. Which, I have told you guys my one-person-level solution to that already, is to not be a raw dog materialist and idk wait for the singularity where we achieve some bodiless consciousness event horizon? Which I know won't happen but it seems about as realistic as me ever being thin and HONESTLY a lot more fun to think about (see: fantasy land). This lady was saying she lost a bunch of weight by eating differently but now can't eat anything without having some kind of feeling or guilt attached to the food. Which (not a brag here my god I'm such a slovenly and artless weirdo) I don't have and definitely don't ever want. Like I think spending too much time around those kind of ideas will just fuck me up (not to say those ideas are bad or shouldn't be shared, god bless everyone for sharing in anything in their experiences). That's why I read cooking blogs and safety blogs and not issue blogs! Not even just feminist blogs, like years ago I read the Consumerist all the time, and had a dream about why Best Buy was just so bad and awful, really fired up emotions in the dream. I woke up and thought, I need to fucking stop reading that right now. Best Buy's being shitty, Ralph Lauren shopped a lady to have a waist smaller than her neck, I can't do anything about it, might as well enjoy life elsewhere.

Good lord woman, I love you.

I am very sleepy and going to take a nap. Later I will respond and tell you precisely why I relate to that post so hard.

:)

because it's pretty clear that I'm largely alone in feeling the way I do (at least around these parts)
not true, i said the basically same thing upthread, but i only said it once and not very emphatically.

i don't engage with things that make me feel bad (as abbott was describing) and it works out pretty well. if that means that i live in a fantasy land, fine. i live in a fantasy land. you'll know you're there because i will be there too. we can talk about music/other noises and cooking and plants and animals and tiny parts of words and the elements and how raw nature is. see you around there sometime!