so tell me, why is Kaputt better or worse than Let England Shake?

i'm not sure what your objection is, iatee, other than standard hipster sneering at anything that comes across as too serious/earnest. like, what do you think is concretely wrong with her approach?

did you learn something about violence and war

― iatee, Thursday, February 9, 2012

that's what ILE is for

it's one-dimensional, full of cliches and self-important. but like I said, some catchy songs.

DJP: that's cool, but snidely dissing it as a "powerful work of art lol" is dickish, worse than lex traipsing through indie threads to voice generic disdain.

I mean if you guys are really moved by this album I have this thing called pink floyd's 'the wall', be ready

it's one-dimensional, full of cliches and self-important. but like I said, some catchy songs.

it's no more one-dimensional than kaputt. they're both albums with a unified voice, theme, set of concerns. nether colors outside those lines all that much, but they both leave a lot of room for exploration within them. and i'm not sure how LES is cliched in ways the destroyer album isn't. one's concerned with war and national identity, the other with romance, alienation and 80s culture. both lean on familiar sounds & conceptions, neither is saying anything terribly novel at heart.

Don't think the Destroyer is cliched at all - don't think its good either though

I mean if you guys are really moved by this album I have this thing called pink floyd's 'the wall', be ready

uh no thanks

i can't really help anyone who thinks lines like "beautiful England, and the grey, damp filthiness of ages, and battered books / fog rolling down behind the mountains / on the graveyards of dead sea captains" are clichés - that's about as ambitious an attempt to sketch a country in a few lines as you get, and it's evocative exactly like a literal sketch would be. she's a great songwriter, always has been - it's pretty interesting to draw comparisons between her previous mostly inward-facing songwriting and her first conscious attempt to put herself entirely outside the action of the songs.

i mean, you're obviously not really interested in it though, so i won't spend time arguing. your loss! i pity you.

i haven't seen any of kaputt's fans discussing his songwriting, just his "signifiers" and "sound", which makes me think there isn't much going on with the songwriting there. though there's not a great deal interesting going on with the sound either and they're not shutting up about that

I mean if you guys are really moved by this album I have this thing called pink floyd's 'the wall', be ready

― iatee, Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:28 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

see, that's that sneering, too-cool horseshit again. like anything that might presume to address history & war or directly express political outrage/anguish automatically = the wall? that's reductive and frankly stupid, unless you can show that harvey's analysis really is as narrow and self-centered as waters'.

if you guys are really moved by this album

I think maybe I am? I'm just still getting into it. There's something to be said, I think, for the way it acknowledges brutality in an elegaic context.

I don't think she is as bad a lyricist as waters, no, it's just a really 1-dimensional album. young people in england. war. death. oh man. heavy. heavyyyyy.

good pop album tho.

What do you mean by songwriting, Lex? Lyrics? Compositional structures?

i can't really help anyone who thinks lines like "beautiful England, and the grey, damp filthiness of ages, and battered books / fog rolling down behind the mountains / on the graveyards of dead sea captains" are clichés

in speaking of cliches, i think iatee is describing a snidely reductive view of the album's themes. cliches like "war is bad lol" and "suffering lol".

lol you think destroyer has dimensions

xp

well you can remove the lols if you want?

well it's pretty obvious iatee hasn't actually listened to it, and it's also obvious passim that he's a div, so why bother w/him

lol, so the fact that the album has a theme makes it 1-dimensional? way to engage yr brain there

dimensions of beauty and, frankly, ethereal transcendence.

she's a great songwriter, always has been

She's really good. And a good singer. Those blue notes in "The Words That Maketh Murder" are beautiful.

i don't get 'chill vibez' from kaputt at all, it's more like steely dan where beneath the slickness it's all very uncomfortable

think we've probably found the one way in which is interesting to place these albums in opposition, and it's v. likely that ppl who enjoy the old-fashioned direct expression of les would be put off by the icey remove of kaputt and vice versa.

meh another big surprise: iatee's smugness serves as a tough protective covering for his rongness

i was definitely moved by it. its beautiful. but not just beautiful. i think she's doing really amazing/interesting/important work. and i can't say that about a ton of people working now.

white chalk kinda took my breath away too when i first heard it. i didn't hear it when it came out. that's a really gutsy record!

She's really good. And a good singer. Those blue notes in "The Words That Maketh Murder" are beautiful.

she has such incredible command over her voice - the changes from album to album are pretty astonishing

w/r/t bejar's songwriting on kaputt, one thing i think he does extremely well is the ability to make mostly meandering and mostly formless tunes very catchy. in lieu of the traditional and predictable verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, many of the songs have 2 or 3 catchy hooks which end up being bejar simply repeating a phrase or singing a line in an unexpected and pleasant way. for an album mostly considered an 'indie "rock"' record, this is one way it stands apart and makes it special

also the way that bejar will sing a hook only one time on an album makes re-listens more rewarding imo: instead of waiting 30 seconds to hear the hook again, you're anticipating it the next time you hear the record

the old-fashioned direct expression of les

i'm not sure i'd describe LES like this - direct yeah, but perhaps observation is more accurate than expression - harvey takes on a journalistic role and the narrator's voice is outside the action at all times - it's not about her self-expression at all

also the way that bejar will sing a hook only one time on an album makes re-listens more rewarding imo: instead of waiting 30 seconds to hear the hook again, you're anticipating it the next time you hear the record

... you can't really call it a "hook" at that point, can you?

iatee are you just trolling lex or do i have to destroy you >:[

i mean i think you can.. it's just a bit more temporally shifted

better to leave single hooks dangling everywhere than a group of identical hooks in one place, it is much better to snare the discriminating listener.

^__^

destroy him anyway xp

my working definition of a 'hook' is that catchy part of a song that i just cant help but sing out loud

white chalk kinda took my breath away too when i first heard it. i didn't hear it when it came out. that's a really gutsy record!

― scott seward, Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:44 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

white chalk is fucking terrifying and, i think, a little better than LES. but LES is no slouch.

I don't think you can only enjoy one of these records, lex and iatee are not actually symbolic of some deep truth.

i haven't seen any of kaputt's fans discussing his songwriting, just his "signifiers" and "sound", which makes me think there isn't much going on with the songwriting there.

i don't really care about the 80s signifiers/sound/whatever of kaputt, it's totally about the songwriting for me (though the sound and signifiers are totally part of the songwriting). diamonddave is correct, the songs are very loose in structure and feel but there are little bits that grab you and those become the hooks/choruses. plus i love his lyrics, and i don't really get people who complain about his singing - do you guys not listen to any music with "difficult" (ie nontraditional) vocals?

also the way that bejar will sing a hook only one time on an album makes re-listens more rewarding imo: instead of waiting 30 seconds to hear the hook again, you're anticipating it the next time you hear the record

... you can't really call it a "hook" at that point, can you?

― I spend a lot of time thinking about apricots (DJP), Thursday, February 9, 2012 12:50 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure you can! why not?

white chalk kind of reminds me of stina nordenstam - the way she sounds so comfortable, so at home, in this terrifying and mad place

1-dimensional album. young people in england. war. death. oh man. heavy. heavyyyyy.

it also addresses age, memory, music, history, language and a bunch of other things. all you're doing is childishly snarking at seriousness of artistic purpose. asinine, imo.

i don't really get people who complain about his singing - do you guys not listen to any music with "difficult" (ie nontraditional) vocals?

pj harvey!

his voice is antithetical to good vibes for me

the songs are very loose in structure and feel but there are little bits that grab you and those become the hooks/choruses

this reminds me of what tori amos did on boys for pele

iatee are you just trolling lex or do i have to destroy you >:[

mostly trolling lex, I don't hate pj harvey but I think it's funny that lex can be so vocal about something that's ultimately a concept rock album

sure you can! why not?

I am thinking of how "hook" and "chorus" are used interchangeably in pop/rock/hip-hop/r&b

Yeah as I said upthread Kaputt is like tori x aaliyah

Ha lex was so fun to work up abt this, but now iatee has me switching sides, pj has always been amazing

Truth is, these are both really good albums and I bet a lot of the same audience like them both, only on bizarre old ilm where we constantly have to triangulate where stuff falls on the rockist/popist spectrum and remain vigilant against indie cooties would these two albums even be presented as adversaries

kmt tim you are too obvious in your trolling

And here i thought I was being subtle.

w/r/t bejar's songwriting on kaputt, one thing i think he does extremely well is the ability to make mostly meandering and mostly formless tunes very catchy. in lieu of the traditional and predictable verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, many of the songs have 2 or 3 catchy hooks which end up being bejar simply repeating a phrase or singing a line in an unexpected and pleasant way. for an album mostly considered an 'indie "rock"' record, this is one way it stands apart and makes it special

― radiant silverfish (diamonddave85), Thursday, February 9, 2012 10:47 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

don't really get this, and it's what keeps me at some distance from destroyer (and why i was sort of cool on john maus' pitiless censors, mentioned upthread): for me, the songs just aren't there. the vibe is certainly pleasant, but nothing really moves me or stays with me. this makes it hard to really respect bejar as a songwriter. it's not like there aren't a few hooks there, but not enough to really work as pop, and the arrangements/song structures aren't interesting enough to make up for the lack. perhaps this only demonstrates my shallowness as a listener, but if so then so.