Indefinite Detention? But I Have Soccer Practice at 4: U.S. Politics 2012

just wanted to pipe in to say that i think glenn greenwald is up there with my least favorite human beings in the world but he's probably right about obama supporters changing their mind about gitmo before + after election. i think it's sad, but telling about the American (and maybe World) public. that said, his broader implicit point (i assume from numerous other articles i've read by him, i haven't read this particular one) that this makes liberals just like conservatives is incorrect. there is still a much larger critical-of-Obama left than there was a critical-of-Bush right, including mr greenwald himself. the problem is that he enjoys pretending like he's one voice shouting into the darkness when actually there's a bunch of ppl who agree with him, who write similar things (i'm sure if he wasn't on vacation, sullivan would be quoting this article approvingly). it's nowhere near the majority of the democratic party, but it's growing.

there is still a much larger critical-of-Obama left than there was a critical-of-Bush right, including mr greenwald himself.

Agreed, and the White House knows it or knew it (e.g. Rahm Emmanuel shaking fingers at "fucking retarded" liberals). Unimaginable when Bush and Ronnie stuck their fingers in the press' asshole.

i don't think there is a lot of statistical evidence for that group of people

don't get me wrong, I would be cool w/ those people existing. the world would be a better place if those people existed. it's just...they mostly don't

a lot of this hard stuff will be easier during a second term

*bangs head repeatedly against the wall*

I love how building an evidentiary case of things we know to be true from everyday life is frequently required in this courtroom on this board.

he's probably right about obama supporters changing their mind about gitmo before + after election.

ie YES

24% of Americans disapprove somewhat, or strongly, about keeping open the prison at Guantanamo Bay for terrorist suspects. xp

the people you talk to on a daily basis are not a very representative sample set of americans, morbs

oh thank God

On an average weekday I don't talk to any people beyond transactions and professional matters...

regardless they're people who live in or near NYC which means they are politically a couple miles away from the American center. Rudy and Bloomberg are left-wing dems in half the states in the country.

I wish this were its own country too so we did not have to have a political system where we compromised w/ the crazy people that live elsewhere but ultimately that is how things work

and yet, morbz, you also complain about getting the stink-eye whenever you badmouth Obama to your liberal/progressive/whatevah acquaintances ...

I think the "vast" difference between NYers and the mainland cavedwellers is exaggerated in political matters. Most of the people we are discussing (voting Dem until they die, every time) had the same Pavlovian response to the Dream Warrior.

people here vote straight-ticket dem because the real election happens before the general election and is a contest people who are more left-wing than generic american dem. when everyone's the same party, party doesn't matter and means basically nothing.

context among people*

contest err

I was talkin bout the means-nothin-presidency

well if someone super-left wing was running for president as a dem, nyc would vote for them. the problem is the rest of the country.

hell you could prob run in nyc as a dem. it just really doesn't mean anything, it's a organizational tool, there's no philosophy here to hate. the things you need to hate are:
a. everyone in america
b. the constitution

what would be legally required to close guantanamo as a detention center? i have the sense that the bush administration created it largely by fiat? what is congress's authority over it now?

(i am not making excuses for bho, just curious)

well if someone super-left wing was running for president as a dem, nyc would vote for them. the problem is the rest of the country.

don't buy this at all.

1.) obama basically ran on a "super left-wing" platform and still won by a decent margin. (no, he wasn't kucinich, but if promising to pass universal health care, end the war in iraq, and close gitmo aren't "super left-wing" policies, i don't know what is.)
2.) "super left-wing" is basically in the eye of the beholder. the fact that the political establishment has agreed, say, that closing gitmo is an extremist "left-wing" policy doesn't mean that this instantly becomes the prevailing view of most americans.
3.) it's really problematic to use polls to make sweeping statements about what "most americans" believe because ppl's answers are largely dependent on the way poll questions are worded. i.e., ppl are more likely to respond favorably when asked if the government should 'do more to help poor people' than they are if asked if the government should 'spend more on welfare programs.'

I wish this were its own country too so we did not have to have a political system where we compromised w/ the crazy people that live elsewhere but ultimately that is how things work

you guys elected Bloomberg, I'm not sure you're really as well-positioned to throw stones as you think dude

bloomberg's pretty left-wing, like further than the dems on a lot of stuff w/ the exception a few 'admittedly kinda important' issues. and still woulda lost two of the three elections if staten island didn't exist.

exception of

man iatee your bizarro clubhouse version of the world has gone from offensive to fascinating for me. it's always "those bad people from this place I hate" who're the problem, whether the issue's local, national, or global. v. silly + unuseful lens thru which to view the world imo

what do you think of the dems aero

how do you like that obama dude

staten island is a bastion of liberalism?!?

you and me, we're against the same things, I hate the cause you hate the effect

eis, staten island is a bastion of suburban conservativism that's just big enough to allow left-wing gop pols to swing some nyc elections

haha otm re: bloomberg

there is, on a day-to-day level in a major city, a lot to be said for making the trains run on time tho. (no i am not excusing his convention/ows/other behavior.)

a big problem with the gop is that they're so against the idea of government that they won't even bother administrating it.

I don't think we're actually against the same things in the sense that I don't hate everybody who's not exactly like me

Bloomie isn't 'left wing' by any standard cept conventionally pro-gay/Planned Parenthood etc (plus he's one hilarious liar on rich/poor issues: "ppl on Wall Street make $45-50 G") and he would've lost last time if the Dems hadn't nominated a nobody who was in bed with him.

or if he didn't get to spend like $400 per nyc voter on ads

but mostly, staten island

actually i think he's pissed at how close he came to losing to a nobody

bloomberg's pretty left-wing, like further than the dems on a lot of stuff w/ the exception a few 'admittedly kinda important' issues. and still woulda lost two of the three elections if staten island didn't exist.

You are totally insane, you know this right

aero you've managed to abstract your hardcore leftism into this thing where , idk, the voters and people in america really have no relation to what should and can happen, and it's just those 'not hard enough left public figures' who are the cause of all our problems. that's v. convenient, it's all due to some powerful forces and some dudes in suits on tv and the good-hearted american people are just being tricked. no - it's not the fact that a very high % of people in america believe that women should not ever be able to get an abortion, ever - no, that has no effect on american policy at all. it's the mysterious forces and sell-out dems. america is actually packed w/ good-hearted pro-choice socialists, they're just all hiding under rocks, waiting for the magic third party to appear.

bloomberg pushed for congestion pricing, very strict gun control laws, gay marriage, he's against the death penalty etc. etc.

honestly the scenario you're spinning out of air (which neither I nor anyone else believes) is still less batshit insane than "all the dumb ppl in [town/county/state/country] are the problem" - I know you can't actually imagine that even as logically possible, because you've been drunk on "the people in [region/locality] are so stupid!" for so long so there is no point in even arguing, I'm just commenting that it's fascinating, because it's so transparently a 1) foolish and 2) losing argument but it's like your absolute go-to in every scenario. the bad people from the bad places. if only we could be rid of them. <--- never ever get anywhere with that line of thinking + it's wrong in the first place but neither of these disqualifiers offset the apparent sweetness of the argt for you. it's just weird is all!

whew. i was worried for a second that this clusterfuck wasn't actually going to happen.

lol

when you call out american policy makers you are calling out the people who voted for them. you can pretend that you're not, that the senator from oklahoma really has *nothing to do* with the people and culture of oklahoma. he's just this dude, there. what an asshole, right? but you're just abstracting the issue. american politics is making a big grand compromise w/ 'the bad people in the bad places'. it sucks, we do it, that's why things are the way they are.

I know that that's what you think! it's literally insane, tossing out the many other things about American politics that don't suit your pet notion! that is what is really interesting about yr whole deal, the amount of sheer effort you have to put into your unworking, wrong, utterly ridiculous "bad people/bad places" weird post-Marxist hangover ideology!

"there's no money in politics...the electorate never shifts...if it does, thank the good people from the good places...there's literally nothing else in play besides the voters, they're really running the show...these fuckin' rubble...you can admit it or not, but they're scum...their individual donations are really the engine that drives the whole machine...gotta re-wire that machine for their own good...the days grow hot, O Babylon...'tis cool beneath thy villow trees"

tbh I do not have to put very much effort into this ideology "on the whole, people vote for politicians who represent and enact their policy beleifs"

I have some pretty crazy beliefs, no doubt, but the 'voting has something to do w/ politics' theory has many proponents

yeah dude "on the whole, voting is a complex behavior with many variables in play" would be a much safer & truer assertion

as w/ many things, it might be on an individual level, when millions of people do it they follow fairly predictable patterns

the overwhelming pattern being "they vote for someone who best represents their political beliefs"

it's crazy but I'm the one not being patronizing towards millions of people atm

aero is it mistaken to think that the voters in some states are more hostile to abortion rights than those in other states?