Indefinite Detention? But I Have Soccer Practice at 4: U.S. Politics 2012

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http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/02/everybody-loves-drones

nice, america

diln (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:29 (six years ago) Permalink

*sigh*

The poll shows that 53 percent of self-identified liberal Democrats — and 67 percent of moderate or conservative Democrats — support keeping Guantanamo Bay open, even though it emerged as a symbol of the post-Sept. 11 national security policies of George W. Bush, which many liberals bitterly opposed.

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 18:51 (six years ago) Permalink

looooooooove me, love me, love me.... xp

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:26 (six years ago) Permalink

To expand on Shakey's point:

The Democratic Party owes a sincere apology to George Bush, Dick Cheney and company for enthusiastically embracing many of the very Terrorism policies which caused them to hurl such vehement invective at the GOP for all those years. And progressives who support the views of the majority as expressed by this poll should never be listened to again the next time they want to pretend to oppose civilian slaughter and civil liberties assaults when perpetrated by the next Republican President (it should be noted that roughly 35% of liberals, a non-trivial amount, say they oppose these Obama policies).

One final point: I’ve often made the case that one of the most consequential aspects of the Obama legacy is that he has transformed what was once known as “right-wing shredding of the Constitution” into bipartisan consensus, and this is exactly what I mean. When one of the two major parties supports a certain policy and the other party pretends to oppose it — as happened with these radical War on Terror policies during the Bush years — then public opinion is divisive on the question, sharply split. But once the policy becomes the hallmark of both political parties, then public opinion becomes robust in support of it.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:39 (six years ago) Permalink

that post is sort of hystrionic (quel surprise) but his point is valid

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:42 (six years ago) Permalink

er Greenwald's post that is

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:42 (six years ago) Permalink

american liberals 'not actually very left-wing' is not some shocka, it's why we are where we are

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:45 (six years ago) Permalink

voters I mean

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:45 (six years ago) Permalink

Greenwald's complete disconnect from the realities of american political opinion is impressive even for a Liberaltarian who lives in Brazil.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:15 (six years ago) Permalink

god only knows what a 'liberaltarian' is

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:18 (six years ago) Permalink

the hypocrisy on this point is pretty blatant Matt, I don't get what "realities" are being elided here

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:20 (six years ago) Permalink

or is it just that you don't think he should be shocked

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:20 (six years ago) Permalink

nobody's a hypocrite cause nobody's a liberal

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:22 (six years ago) Permalink

GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal and voted for Obama in large part because of it.

1. the number of these people is small, too small to be judged from these polls

2. if we could do a poll of these people, most of them would be disappointed with Obama, and very few would now suddenly support civil liberties violations.

But GG probably chats with 2 or 3 of these people online so he's really pissed.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:27 (six years ago) Permalink

yes sadly i think GG overestimates how much the civil liberties grodiness was animating liberals in 2006 or 08

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:28 (six years ago) Permalink

i think he is right about various kinds of media basically ignoring this issue now that a liberal is president however

the number of people saying they support guantanamo's operation is legit surprising

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:29 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm reasonably certain there's poll data showing a shift among liberals both pre- and post-Obama election

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:30 (six years ago) Permalink

the % of people who could actually tell you what guantanamo is, why it exists, how it operates is probably pretty low

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:30 (six years ago) Permalink

like I wouldn't be surprised if < 50% would know what country it's in

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:31 (six years ago) Permalink

GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal

He explicitly says these ppl were posturing/pretending to care about these matters when BushCheney were in charge.

Turns out all they really do care about is gay pride proclamations, abortion/contraception, and the prez being "cool."

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:39 (six years ago) Permalink

the fact that they're idiots doesn't make them not hypocrites though

diln (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:40 (six years ago) Permalink

xp

otherwise i pretty much agree

diln (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:40 (six years ago) Permalink

He explicitly says these ppl were posturing/pretending to care about these matters when BushCheney were in charge.

Turns out all they really do care about is gay pride proclamations, abortion/contraception, and the prez being "cool."

― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 8:39 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

even in this construct, those people aren't suddenly OK with Gitmo, they're just supporting Obama anyway. These polls don't reflect Gitmo hypocrites.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:43 (six years ago) Permalink

GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal and voted for Obama in large part because of it.

1. the number of these people is small, too small to be judged from these polls

no idea where you're getting your info from but i've never met a single self-defined progressive OR liberal who wasn't at least kind of bothered by the bush admin's policies on civil liberties, espec. gitmo.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:30 (six years ago) Permalink

seriously cannot remember encountering a single 'liberal' person, outside of maybe a fuckin' joe klein article or something, that insisted that bush was doing a stellar job on the civil liberties front.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:33 (six years ago) Permalink

'I don't know anyone who voted for nixon' etc.

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:34 (six years ago) Permalink

Matt also did not hear the applause in every Bam '08 "I will close Guantanamo" speech

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:36 (six years ago) Permalink

Matt, you're being real disingenuous. Every liberal friend in '05 specifically mentioned Bush's civil liberties violations (and Iraq) as his most egregious cins.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:38 (six years ago) Permalink

xpost that applause was just a tiny portion of the audience clapping really loudly

Z S, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:41 (six years ago) Permalink

also they were shouting boo-urns

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:42 (six years ago) Permalink

Maybe Matt can visit the OWS thread and enlighten them on their complete disconnect from the American political system.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:54 (six years ago) Permalink

Matt, you're being real disingenuous. Every liberal friend in '05 specifically mentioned Bush's civil liberties violations (and Iraq) as his most egregious cins.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:38 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Iraq>>>>>civil liberties violations

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:27 (six years ago) Permalink

your liberal friends are a scintilla in a poll of "Democrats." and I presume hardly any of them are now ok with Gitmo remaining open.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:28 (six years ago) Permalink

your liberal friends are a scintilla in a poll of "Democrats." and I presume hardly any of them are now ok with Gitmo remaining open.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:28 (six years ago) Permalink

You can't untangle the war in Iraq and the diminishing of civil liberties in a national security state primed for war. That's like bemoaning MLK for "abandoning" civil rights to concentrate on the Vietnam War -- they were both connected!

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:29 (six years ago) Permalink

remember Alec Baldwin's line from The Departed? "PATRIOT ACT!!!"

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:30 (six years ago) Permalink

GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal and voted for Obama in large part because of it.
1. the number of these people is small, too small to be judged from these polls

no idea where you're getting your info from but i've never met a single self-defined progressive OR liberal who wasn't at least kind of bothered by the bush admin's policies on civil liberties, espec. gitmo.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:30 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"kind of bothered"

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:31 (six years ago) Permalink

GG is arguing against a phantom progressive who pretended to be upset by Gitmo but is now supporting it. Where are these people? This poll doesn't show them, it shows a much broader portrait of Democrats and the public at large. Passionate Liberaltarians are a small part of that larger whole, and hardly any of them were frontin' on Gitmo.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:33 (six years ago) Permalink

uh have you read his links, dude?

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:34 (six years ago) Permalink

and he's been writing about the silence of liberals who weren't so quiet when Bush was in the Oval Office for three years now. There's a search engine.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:35 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah, um read the poll a little more closely dude

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:36 (six years ago) Permalink

DUDE

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:36 (six years ago) Permalink

Does GG really think people now "support" Gitmo and think it's hunky dory when they used to "pretend" it was awful? It's more complicated than that and a broad poll of the Democratic electorate does not show this kind of rampant hypocrisy. People are ok with Obama not closing it because they realized how complicated closing it would be, because they weren't that passionate about it in the first place etc.

Does anyone know someone who actually was pretending to be upset about Gitmo but now thinks it's ok? It's an absurd straw man.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:43 (six years ago) Permalink

he has a better case on drone strikes, but that's a hypothetical.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:46 (six years ago) Permalink

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postabcpoll_020412.html

This is the breakdown of the poll data as linked by Greenwald. As far as I can tell, the relevant data is here:

13. Changing topics, thinking about the following decisions of the Obama administration, please tell me whether you strongly approve, somewhat approve, somewhat disapprove, or strongly disapprove.

2/4/12 - Summary Table

--- Approve ---- -- Disapprove -- No
NET Str. Smwt. NET Smwt. Str. op.
a. Keeping open the prison at Guantanamo
Bay for terrorist suspects 70 42 28 24 12 13 5
b. The drawdown of U.S. troops from
Afghanistan 78 56 23 19 10 9 2
c. The use of unmanned, “drone” aircraft
against terrorist suspects overseas 83 59 23 11 7 4 6

42% of all respondents strongly approve and 28% somewhat approve. I don't see any demographic breakdown in the data about left/Democratic voters anywhere; Greenwald seems to be taking the quoted excerpt of the article on faith without any link to corroborating evidence. (I have no reason to doubt those figures but I'm not going to base a screed on a quote with no numbers behind it.)

What I do take away from the data presented is that of these three positions, people disapprove of Guantanamo the most but not at levels that would cost Obama the election, which strikes me as accurate.

I spend a lot of time thinking about apricots (DJP), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:48 (six years ago) Permalink

I am not happy about Gitmo but I have a certain understanding that a POTUS cannot just ride roughshod over the 'establishment' w/o losing a lot of political capital, esp a Democrat in a period of paranoid hysteria. I would have preferred a more agressive look-in on Wall Street practices, too, but again, not easy when you have the second largest financial slowdown in US history and ppl are clamoring to get the economy restarted a lot more loudly than they are for justice. Call me jaded, if you wish, but a lot of this hard stuff will be easier during a second term. I'd prefer he be bold about ditching Afghanistan, frankly, so we can quit the 'war on terror' and return to treating terrorists as psychotic murderers subject to our justice system instead of boosting them into an army or whatever the fcuk Cheney decided they were.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:54 (six years ago) Permalink

a lot of this hard stuff will be easier during a second term.

this is the opposite of jaded imho

I'd prefer he be bold about ditching Afghanistan, frankly, so we can quit the 'war on terror' and return to treating terrorists as psychotic murderers subject to our justice system instead of boosting them into an army or whatever the fcuk Cheney decided they were.

but... current Obama policy is to treat them as psychotic murderers completely outside ANY justice system!

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 23:00 (six years ago) Permalink

Most second terms are a wash though. There is little reason to hope any president will Do The Hard Stuff then.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 23:12 (six years ago) Permalink


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