Yeah, they would be so blindsided by the "The Democrats just raised your taxes with 8% unemployment!" ads, they'd never be able to react. Because you know that's exactly what the GOP would have at the ready when the extension failed.
― You got to ro-o-oll me and call me the tumblr whites (Phil D.), Tuesday, 7 February 2012 23:05 (twelve years ago) link
except that in this case it's the GOP that would be raising taxes...? as they would be explicitly voting against a tax break?
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 February 2012 23:12 (twelve years ago) link
But they would blame it on the failures of Harry Reid and Obama to "work together" and "overecome partisanship" to accomplish an extension.. They're famous for that kind of crap.
― You got to ro-o-oll me and call me the tumblr whites (Phil D.), Tuesday, 7 February 2012 23:15 (twelve years ago) link
that's so transparently false tho. Dems would just say "we voted for the tax break. The GOP voted against it. end of story"
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 February 2012 23:15 (twelve years ago) link
hypothetically
Hypothetically Americans aren't morons swayed by the words of fucking Mitch McConnell but... welp.
― Frobisher (Viceroy), Tuesday, 7 February 2012 23:43 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-advisors-seek-compromise-on-contraception-rule/2012/02/06/gIQAlUwrwQ_story.html?hpid=z2
Stay strong White House, do not cave, please.
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 16:37 (twelve years ago) link
taking bets?
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 16:38 (twelve years ago) link
http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/02/everybody-loves-drones
nice, america
― diln (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:29 (twelve years ago) link
*sigh*
The poll shows that 53 percent of self-identified liberal Democrats — and 67 percent of moderate or conservative Democrats — support keeping Guantanamo Bay open, even though it emerged as a symbol of the post-Sept. 11 national security policies of George W. Bush, which many liberals bitterly opposed.
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 18:51 (twelve years ago) link
Boehner comes out against boner blocking ...uh... I give up
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:00 (twelve years ago) link
looooooooove me, love me, love me.... xp
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:26 (twelve years ago) link
To expand on Shakey's point:
The Democratic Party owes a sincere apology to George Bush, Dick Cheney and company for enthusiastically embracing many of the very Terrorism policies which caused them to hurl such vehement invective at the GOP for all those years. And progressives who support the views of the majority as expressed by this poll should never be listened to again the next time they want to pretend to oppose civilian slaughter and civil liberties assaults when perpetrated by the next Republican President (it should be noted that roughly 35% of liberals, a non-trivial amount, say they oppose these Obama policies).
One final point: I’ve often made the case that one of the most consequential aspects of the Obama legacy is that he has transformed what was once known as “right-wing shredding of the Constitution” into bipartisan consensus, and this is exactly what I mean. When one of the two major parties supports a certain policy and the other party pretends to oppose it — as happened with these radical War on Terror policies during the Bush years — then public opinion is divisive on the question, sharply split. But once the policy becomes the hallmark of both political parties, then public opinion becomes robust in support of it.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:39 (twelve years ago) link
that post is sort of hystrionic (quel surprise) but his point is valid
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
er Greenwald's post that is
american liberals 'not actually very left-wing' is not some shocka, it's why we are where we are
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:45 (twelve years ago) link
voters I mean
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yg6eowfxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:47 (twelve years ago) link
Greenwald's complete disconnect from the realities of american political opinion is impressive even for a Liberaltarian who lives in Brazil.
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link
god only knows what a 'liberaltarian' is
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
the hypocrisy on this point is pretty blatant Matt, I don't get what "realities" are being elided here
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
or is it just that you don't think he should be shocked
nobody's a hypocrite cause nobody's a liberal
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal and voted for Obama in large part because of it.
1. the number of these people is small, too small to be judged from these polls
2. if we could do a poll of these people, most of them would be disappointed with Obama, and very few would now suddenly support civil liberties violations.
But GG probably chats with 2 or 3 of these people online so he's really pissed.
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:27 (twelve years ago) link
yes sadly i think GG overestimates how much the civil liberties grodiness was animating liberals in 2006 or 08
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
i think he is right about various kinds of media basically ignoring this issue now that a liberal is president however
the number of people saying they support guantanamo's operation is legit surprising
― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
I'm reasonably certain there's poll data showing a shift among liberals both pre- and post-Obama election
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
the % of people who could actually tell you what guantanamo is, why it exists, how it operates is probably pretty low
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
like I wouldn't be surprised if < 50% would know what country it's in
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal
He explicitly says these ppl were posturing/pretending to care about these matters when BushCheney were in charge.
Turns out all they really do care about is gay pride proclamations, abortion/contraception, and the prez being "cool."
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:39 (twelve years ago) link
the fact that they're idiots doesn't make them not hypocrites though
― diln (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
xp
otherwise i pretty much agree
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 8:39 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
even in this construct, those people aren't suddenly OK with Gitmo, they're just supporting Obama anyway. These polls don't reflect Gitmo hypocrites.
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
GG really thinks that there were a ton of "progressives" who thought Gitmo, civil liberties etc. were a big deal and voted for Obama in large part because of it.1. the number of these people is small, too small to be judged from these polls
no idea where you're getting your info from but i've never met a single self-defined progressive OR liberal who wasn't at least kind of bothered by the bush admin's policies on civil liberties, espec. gitmo.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:30 (twelve years ago) link
seriously cannot remember encountering a single 'liberal' person, outside of maybe a fuckin' joe klein article or something, that insisted that bush was doing a stellar job on the civil liberties front.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:33 (twelve years ago) link
'I don't know anyone who voted for nixon' etc.
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:34 (twelve years ago) link
Matt also did not hear the applause in every Bam '08 "I will close Guantanamo" speech
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:36 (twelve years ago) link
Matt, you're being real disingenuous. Every liberal friend in '05 specifically mentioned Bush's civil liberties violations (and Iraq) as his most egregious cins.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:38 (twelve years ago) link
xpost that applause was just a tiny portion of the audience clapping really loudly
― Z S, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:41 (twelve years ago) link
also they were shouting boo-urns
― max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:42 (twelve years ago) link
Maybe Matt can visit the OWS thread and enlighten them on their complete disconnect from the American political system.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 21:54 (twelve years ago) link
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:38 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Iraq>>>>>civil liberties violations
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:27 (twelve years ago) link
your liberal friends are a scintilla in a poll of "Democrats." and I presume hardly any of them are now ok with Gitmo remaining open.
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:28 (twelve years ago) link
You can't untangle the war in Iraq and the diminishing of civil liberties in a national security state primed for war. That's like bemoaning MLK for "abandoning" civil rights to concentrate on the Vietnam War -- they were both connected!
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:29 (twelve years ago) link
remember Alec Baldwin's line from The Departed? "PATRIOT ACT!!!"
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:30 (twelve years ago) link
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:30 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
"kind of bothered"
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:31 (twelve years ago) link
GG is arguing against a phantom progressive who pretended to be upset by Gitmo but is now supporting it. Where are these people? This poll doesn't show them, it shows a much broader portrait of Democrats and the public at large. Passionate Liberaltarians are a small part of that larger whole, and hardly any of them were frontin' on Gitmo.
― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:33 (twelve years ago) link
uh have you read his links, dude?
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:34 (twelve years ago) link
and he's been writing about the silence of liberals who weren't so quiet when Bush was in the Oval Office for three years now. There's a search engine.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 22:35 (twelve years ago) link