ILM's Top 77 ALBUMS of 2011

i can totally see why someone who cares about black metal would get annoyed with liturgy and the attention that they've gotten, but i do think they're doing something remarkable. not necessarily better than straight-up black metal but different enough. they might be coming from a different perspective and appropriating black metal tropes, but i don't think it's being done in a cynical way, and they execute it really well.

Jordan very much otm wrt to that post, they are doing something remarkable and I think a good sign that it works is how many "tr00 kvlt" fans are pissed off by it.

not to reflect on the cruelty and isolation of existence but to harness the elemental violence of nature
see to me, these are sort of the same thing, so i was disappointed when i really didn't hear it. maybe i didn't give it a chance? i like black metal but liturgy just didn't speak to me. it's also possible i was in the wrong mood the one time i gave it a chance...

― La Lechera, Tuesday, 31 January 2012 14:59 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, this is what I got - to me BM has to project images and ideas - it's gotta be more than just playing fast and howling. Those first couple of Emperor albums, as an example, have the power to transport me. It's like watching an epic fantasy movie or getting immersed in a good video game. It's supposed to be imaginative, mood-setting, and I don't get that from Liturgy. I also don't understand the distinction in the quote, nor how a number of metal (and hardcore, especially hardcore) bands don't do this kind of thing already. It makes me wonder if Liturgy have actually got the idea of BM completely wrong, making it out to be nothing but cruel, negative ruminations on death when really it's a lot more complex than that.

how come you never see intense no wave fans moaning about Liturgy shitting up Glen Branca's wall-o-guitar stylings with stupid banshee metal screeching

that's what I want to know

Jordan very much otm wrt to that post, they are doing something remarkable and I think a good sign that it works is how many "tr00 kvlt" fans are pissed off by it.

― Gonjasufjanstephen O'Malley (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 31 January 2012 15:15 (14 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm honestly not being facetious here, but what exactly is remarkable about this? To me it sounds exactly like what Liars would make if they decided to "go metal" - I don't see that as remarkable from a metal POV or an indie POV?

however I can imagine the majority of newcomers approach Liturgy as exactly that - a "safe" gateway into a style that bypasses all those difficult hurdles that people have trouble with when listening to albums like Filosofem or Battles In The North.

Those albums are 15+ years old now. Of course newcomers are going to check out modern bands. Thankfully we haven't hit Classic Extreme Metal era yet like with Rock, where people only check out metal from 30/40 years ago.
Also its rather telling that dog latin brings up older bands as he hasn't listened to metal in about a decade at least so cant name any modern day touchstones.

and ANYTHING is better than nu-metal or metalcore which have been the biggest commercial sub-genres for 15 years and also the worst thing to hit metal since the shitty glam era bands.

sure, but i don't see what any of that's got to do with it, Kerr.

i totally get epic fantasy movie from this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pt4K7KvJcI

To me it sounds exactly like what Liars would make if they decided to "go metal" -

liars or mogwai would never be able to pull off what's happening rhythmically here.

Imho, Liturgy's approach is remarkable only because they are bringing an entirely new approach to black metal, which has traditionaly been a very rigid genre. I'm not the guy to effectively break down the differences, but when you've listened to a lot of black metal you can get a feel for how different their approach really is. One way I've really noticed is the drumming, which is shift off the rest of the band in a way that you rarely encounter in black metal.

charlie you need to listen to more metal this year! (and check out good stuff you missed since you stopped paying attention.)

i am arguing about metal on the internet!

the drummer left Liturgy btw

People started to get all upset about Nachtmystium for a while there, and then Liturgy came along and now no one cares how super goth dance "No Funeral" sounds. Do they? (I personally love that song, but I am a Nachtmystium stan/apologist) I guess they will either stick with this sound or ditch it for their next album, thereby illustrating how they were just dressing up as a metal band, etc.

I don't really care either way tbh. I am also arguing about metal on the internet.

there's more chat about metal on this thread than on the metal poll thread. Where were you guys? Vote next year!

the drummer left Liturgy btw

i know. :(

do they have a new drummer?

People started to get all upset about Nachtmystium for a while there

Ironic considering Nachtmystium was who coined the term Nigel Metal for hipsters getting into black metal.

the drummer left Liturgy btw

I know, and I'm really bummed about this and curious to see how that affects their next record.

ha you don't want that, liturgy was the only metal album i listened to this year, unless you count dub trio.

xp

I guess we're talking about metal only because there's no Lana Del Rey album to argue about. Next year you will be getting nostalgic..

I admit I'm not so familiar with the newer acts, but I am aware that there's a lot more out there than just Liturgy. If Liturgy were blowing my mind I wouldn't have room to complain about them, but as such they're an indiefication of metal who go so far as to write "manifestos" in order to justify their own existence. These manifestos go so far as to disassociate the band with perceived BM tropes, implicitly disparaging those other bands: "We play black metal, but without all the goat-slaughtering and stuff so it's okay" - y'know, as if every BM band before them was hell-bent on sacrificial occultism.

Fwiw, and keeping in mind I have not yet read HHH's text in full, I don't think they are trying to disparage the old acts as much as emphasize "positivity" in black metal instead of "negativity".

we scream about hope v. they scream about despair

i don't really know much about black metal but liturgy sound a lot "cleaner" than most modern black metal bands i've heard - they sound really precise and trebley and focused and repetition-based while most modern black metal sounds murkier and wandering. i think liturgy has taken out a lot of the goth/folk elements from the traditional black metal sound. this isn't a value judgement, i just think there's an obvious difference to how they sound instead of just a difference in how they look/present themselves

what makes liturgy "indie metal" aside from how they look?

Yeah n/a pretty much otm. I also hear a little bit of what Liturgy does in Krallice, to some extent.

Thing with Liturgy is, if say some ilxors wanted to check out some metal as a way in im not sure I'd say Liturgy. Even if they wanted a way in to BM, I'd pick wittr before Liturgy as a new band/album. Obv you have a good choice of classic 90s era too.
I don't know who i would recommend for other sub-genres. Mastodon are more rock than metal these days. I'd recommend them to peoople who ,miss Qotsa.

If you like clean vox and proggy keyboards Id say go for the new Hammers Of Misfortune (which won metal poll) My #1 was the Corrupted album but I'd never inflict them on the uninitiated (see wiki link for why if you're curious)

what makes liturgy "indie metal" aside from how they look?

just playing along, but interest in minimalism?

the manifesto is a good point. i think i said it upthread, but i will say it again. that shit reads like a dr bronner's bottle crossed with maharishi school of management jargon. why exactly is it necessary to write a manifesto? i get screaming about hope but i should be able to tell that you are screaming about hope. otherwise, why not let the listener determine/interpret for him or herself?

n/a is OTM, which is why I don't have a problem with a black metal band in hipster clothes, but the music also SCREAMS Williamsburg-scene rock. Those Animal Collective-style segues, the Hella-style rhythm patterns, the whole Liars-ness of it. Also think the singing is pointless, almost pisstakey in it's delivery.

I prefer Krallice to Liturgy too, but I do really like Liturgy (i obv voted for it)

you don't have to read it?

xp

i know, but i guess i think it's obnoxious that they felt compelled to write it and tell people what their music is "about." can't we figure it out on our own? i think we can.

Oh yeah, I want to make clear that I'm not fully standing behind the manifesto or the whole "positive" vs "negative" approach, just mentioning other ways that people might be able to make an entrance to the music. Basically, I dig what they are doing, manifesto or no, but like ASR, I prefer Krallice.

i think maybe you guys are underestimating how many modern metal bands dabble in minimalism and other forms of experimentation

xp to Jordan a lot of classic BM is minimal though- e.g. Darkthrone. It's been a strand for a long time.

or what n/a said

Those Animal Collective-style segues, the Hella-style rhythm patterns, the whole Liars-ness of it.

lol this says like 100 x more about your sphere of reference than it does Liturgy's

I bought the manifesto for $4 btw. I haven't read it, I just wanted it as a curio really. If people are still talking about it in a decade or so I can say 'oh i have that'. I probably still wont read it though.

I know it's a completely different thing but listening to Liturgy just made me want to listen to Naked City instead

i think Liturgy do a very good job of marketing themselves to specific listeners (i.e. me). i mean, the first record I bought from them was the Immortal Life 12" based solely on the huge TRANSCENDENTAL BLACK METAL printed on the back of the sleeve. coming from noise and drone, i definitely saw the transcendental potential of extreme music like black metal, but I never really saw anyone embracing it as openly

also i love the manifesto: more bands should do faux-spiritual self-mythologizing

oh no no no no no NO

and that is coming from someone who spent five years listening to Insane Clown Posse

Also, lets not forget this album was released on Thrill Jockey and not Candlelight or Peaceville. That automatically shifts the target audience in a not insignificant way.

The manifesto just seems like an underestimation of the listener/super condescending drivel, and I would no sooner like to read his manifesto than read a pamphlet written by a painter that explains his/her painting to me. I can see having it as a curio though. It's definitely a ridiculous gesture on their part. I can ignore it, or at least try to forget that it exists.

i recommend this interview with the dude from liturgy, he doesn't sound like a dick and plays some good tunes: http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/39826

to me, the manifesto is just play: they're having fun with symbols and mythology. i don't understand the condescending reading of it that most people seem to have

btw n/a, i like vorvolakas like 500x more than (what i remember about) liturgy, no exaggeration