Ladies and gentleman, I give you your MVP runnerup: Adrian Beltre

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the point is that minus the IBBs it's a line well within the reach of any mvp caliber player, something that can't be said of his split against righties or overall numbers.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 17:23 (fifteen years ago) link

I think we're missing the TRUE reason we're here:

NL VORP thru Saturday:
Barry Bonds 113.4
Albert Pujols 77.2
Adrian Beltre 77.2
Todd Helton 74.6
Jim Edmonds 73.8
******Mark Loretta 68.2******
Scott Rolen 67.4

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 August 2004 17:27 (fifteen years ago) link

right now it's looking like barry could be the difference in a giants w/l today, but i wonder if he'll do anything more than pinch hit. you'd think with the giants tied in the wild card race and getting two days off next week he might make an exception, but...he's sore, man.

contrast that attitude with sheffield or pujols, who have won i don't know how many games for their teams this year playing through pain. oh, and then there was that whole missing 5 games with a cold thing.

(ie still plenty of reason not to like the guy folks)

John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 17:48 (fifteen years ago) link

I get the sense that BB could just take that HR crown anytime he wanted, and he just might in the end.

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 30 August 2004 18:05 (fifteen years ago) link

Bonds has been playing in pain for almost 3 seasons. he just doesn't talk about it.

Not to mention he is at least 10 years older than Pujols (who knows for sure?) and is quite a different player than Sheffield is.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:20 (fifteen years ago) link

"Bonds has been playing in pain for almost 3 seasons. he just doesn't talk about it."

are you kidding me??

"is quite a different player than Sheffield is."

no, he's not at all. unless you mean what you probably mean, which doesn't actually have anything to do with what i'm talking about. please, don't even try to argue that bonds is half as tough as gary is. barry can (and does) have all the talent in the world, but at the end of the day he's still a pussy.

giants lose 7-6. bonds makes an out in his PH AB.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:30 (fifteen years ago) link

Of course, the Giants lost because their closer-by-Duck-Duck-Goose, Dustin Hermanson, kinda sucks; Bonds' day off (to rest his hammies, and his 40-year-old bod) (FYI - Sheffield's 4.5 years younger than BB) coinciding with a shitty 9th inning pitching performance was a(n) (un)happy coincidence.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:36 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah whatever, i'm still shocked by gygax's "he doesn't talk about it" comment. bonds talks about his pain and anguish - physical, mental, probably spiritual - more than any other player in the game. it's fucking annoying. you can't read a freaking game recap without hearing about how fucking sore he is, how tired he is, how worn out he is, how he's really thinking this might be it for him, etfuckingcetera. he's the biggest diva in baseball.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:40 (fifteen years ago) link


Hi John,

I've been watching Bonds for almost his entire career. While his hamstring isn't going to tear in half, i would imagine that it has never healed completely based on first hand observation. For a guy who has had only 2 substantial stays on the DL in a 19 year career and has played in less than 140 games only 1 time since 1987, your definition of "pussy" shows either a very poor or creative understanding of it.

And while your attempt to credit Bonds with the loss with his PH AB (the Giants had the lead at the time) is charming, if you'd actually watched the game you'd have seen Dustin Hermanson gave up 3 hits and a walk (2 Runs) in the bottom of the 9th while failing to retire a batter.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:48 (fifteen years ago) link

xxpost (hi gygax!):

Well, yeah, there's plenty on-record of The Pain of The Bonds (mostly because, since I'm not in the SF area, the only non-stat noise I hear about Bonds is about his aches & pains & BB's attitude re: the aches & pains & the media's slanting of BB's attitude re: the aches & pains), but if there's a player nowadays that can deservedly get away w/ some diva histrionics, it is he, and I don't recall any outright grandstanding re: his aches & pains (which, from what I've heard, are pretty severe - I heard it takes 10 man hours for his hammies to get prepped before gametime?)

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 August 2004 19:49 (fifteen years ago) link


he didn't cost them the game by making a lousy out, he cost them the game by NOT PLAYING.

for a roided-up 40 year old man with a shot hammy, he still runs the bases and plays the field pretty well. so i thought, in a deadlocked wildcard race with only a month remaining in the season, where a single loss could certainly cost the giants a playoff berth, and with two days off in the coming week, he might take a risk, make an exception, and play this game. sacrifice his body a little bit, for the good of the team, like some of those other mvp candidates are. y'know, that corny old-school unselfish "white" bullshit.

(i'm just kidding of course, i never thought that. i know the guy too well)



John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 20:06 (fifteen years ago) link

He's played in 10 straight games (including day games following night games which he's taken off in the past), the last game he took off was the opener of the doubleheader 8/18 (which was a make-up game and yet he entered the game as a pinch-hitter). The last scheduled game he did not start was on 8/14. I don't think he's been slacking.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 30 August 2004 20:26 (fifteen years ago) link

So it's agreed, Adrian Beltre is our #2

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 30 August 2004 21:04 (fifteen years ago) link

Well, according to the VORP stats through Saturday's games that Dr. Morbius posted upthread: it shows a virtual tie between Pujols and Beltre for #2.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 30 August 2004 21:16 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't really understand how that works out:

beltre, 3B
g - 125
eqa - .340

pujols, 1B
g - 124
eqa - .341

seems to me like beltre should have the higher VORP.

John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 21:40 (fifteen years ago) link

so it's agreed, VORP is confusing and kills fun

Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 30 August 2004 22:19 (fifteen years ago) link


John (jdahlem), Monday, 30 August 2004 22:26 (fifteen years ago) link

Is it me or is the correlation between regular season MVP and world series winner really low?

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 12:45 (fifteen years ago) link

>is the correlation between regular season MVP and world series winner really low?

Well, it would figure to be. Even if most MVP winners are from one of the 8 playoff teams, odds of the player's team going on to get the trophy is roughly 1 in 8, given that most postseason series are a coin flip (or "fucking luck" as Mr Beane put it).

>seems to me like beltre should have the higher VORP

Pujols has nearly 40 more plate appearances.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 15:01 (fifteen years ago) link

ah, that explains it. beltre has clearly been a better player statistically however, and right now i'd give it to him over pujols. i think the pujols-edmonds-rolen combo is so strong it's impossible to decide anymore on any one of them, now that pujols and edmonds have gained and rolen has come back down to earth a little bit.

no one will agree with me on this and he won't win, but it's gotta be sheffield in the AL.

John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 15:08 (fifteen years ago) link

He doesn't gotta be, but he's a perfectly reasonable candidate, and I'd much rather see him get it than David Ortiz (or God help us, Francisco Cordero).

Through Sunday, Shefffield is third in the AL in Adjusted Runs Above Position, trailing only Guillen and Mora (neither of whom will get support) and just ahead of Vlad.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 15:57 (fifteen years ago) link

when you consider his circumstances putting him ahead of vlad and manny (and needless to say ortiz) is a no-brainer. unfortunately the "yankee tax" now seems to be in effect in mvp voting as well.

John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:11 (fifteen years ago) link

Even if most MVP winners are from one of the 8 playoff teams, odds of the player's team going on to get the trophy is roughly 1 in 8, given that most postseason series are a coin flip (or "fucking luck" as Mr Beane put it).

Another way to look at it is that teams who rely on one player for most their offense rarely win it all.

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:56 (fifteen years ago) link

Another way to look at it is that teams rarely win it all.

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 18:25 (fifteen years ago) link


bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 01:52 (fifteen years ago) link

edmonds headed into the stratosphere tonight and beltre is 0-5 as i'm writing this...the race for number 2 ain't over yet.

edmonds .311/.426/.672, neutral park
beltre .338/.386/.652, pitcher's park

gotta figure defense is a wash/edge to edmonds. but jimmy doesn't have great clutch/risp numbers.

the trouble of course is that rolen and pujols still loom VERY large...but i'm moving back to undecided.

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 04:18 (fifteen years ago) link

I think what we can be assured of at the very least is that the top five is probably all sewn up.

Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 04:33 (fifteen years ago) link

If SD gets a playoff berth, Loretta deserves to be in the top 5, and likely won't be.

Edmonds would likely be my #2 at the moment.

VORP, Sept 1

Bonds 118.9
Pujols 82.2
Edmonds 78.5

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 14:20 (fifteen years ago) link

From a giants blog:

"* In terms of EqA, the gap between Bonds and Beltre is bigger than the gap between Beltre and Cody Ransom. Hell, the gap between Bonds and Beltre about as big as the gap between Beltre and Neifarious."

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 7 September 2004 15:28 (fifteen years ago) link

I'm very interested to see how this MVP voting turns out. I'm thinking that Pujols and Edmonds have turned it on so much that they've passed Rolen, and they might split the St. Louis vote. I'm not sure Beltre will be #2 now. I'm almost positive Bonds wins it still.

Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 7 September 2004 17:20 (fifteen years ago) link

I think this year Bonds will be the runner up to Bonds.

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Tuesday, 7 September 2004 17:56 (fifteen years ago) link

good thing for bonds that terry pendleton isn't elligible

mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 7 September 2004 18:24 (fifteen years ago) link

Can we talk about AL MVP? I'm looking at stats, and I can't see anyone running away with it. Candidates likely in contention: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Vladimir Guerrero, Gary Sheffield, Ichiro Suzuki, Miguel Tejada, Melvin Mora, and Ivan Rodriguez.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 17:46 (fifteen years ago) link

Sheff, Manny, and Ortiz are winning the publicity battle. Unfortunately for the Red Sox players, there's bound to be vote-splitting between them so I doubt either will win (Schilling will probably get MVP votes also, splitting the vote even further).

If the Yanks win the division despite all those pitching injuries, I think Sheff will win (although Rivera probably deserved equal credit. In a way, they're the Bonds-Schmidt combo of the AL, or at least, that is how they will be perceived).

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 18:33 (fifteen years ago) link

The other guys you named are all having excellent seasons (we can probably add stathead-favourite Carlos Guillen to the list too) but only Ichiro is receiving what I'd call "MVP-calibre coverage". Too bad he's just Lloyd Waner 2004.

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 18:34 (fifteen years ago) link

(OK, that was cruel and not precisely true, sorry. The part about Lloyd Waner, that is. I stand by the rest)

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 18:35 (fifteen years ago) link

I really don't see how Manny couldn't/shouldn't win it, despite the arguments for Sheff.

Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 19:28 (fifteen years ago) link

Comparing stats, Manny and Ortiz are fairly close, although Manny does clearly have an edge. And Ortiz's "leader" rep from last year has carried over into this season (wasn't he ~ fifth in MVP voting?) -- and he's putting up better numbers this year than last. He will suck votes away from Manny.

Last year Manny was also better when he played (he was injured for several weeks last season). But he's got this Albert Belle-esque rep as a "difficult" personality and a selfish player, which the voters hate. Whereas Ortiz has the opposite rep. I think Manny would need vastly superior numbers than any of his competitors to make up that difference in the voters' eyes, and that's just not true this season.

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:56 (fifteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
My NL runnersup to BB (don't moan about Rolen, 5 through 10 are a crapshoot):

Albert Pujols 2
Adrian Beltre 3
Jim Edmonds 4
Todd Helton 5
Lance Berkman 6
Bobby Abreu 7
Scott Rolen 8
Mark Loretta 9
J.D. Drew 10

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 15:25 (fifteen years ago) link

Is that list based solely on VORP, or did you weight other things in your ranking, Morb?

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:23 (fifteen years ago) link

Of course I weighed other things ... position, for one. I'm no automaton, whether JDahlem can be persuaded or not!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:42 (fifteen years ago) link

After I posted my question, I realized how dopey it was. My bad, Dr. M.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:57 (fifteen years ago) link


Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 22:42 (fifteen years ago) link

DUH doc, position is already weighted in VORP WHAT ARE YOU THINKING

(therefore: NOT a dopey question dave r!)


[and i don't care what you say, rolen should totally have been #4 dude, you've been rash]

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 6 October 2004 01:34 (fifteen years ago) link

eight months pass...
haha, whoops

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Saturday, 11 June 2005 21:07 (fifteen years ago) link

Did you see that article in the LA Times the other day about Beltre? It was kinda sad..

Actor Sizemore fails drug test with fake penis (jingleberries), Monday, 13 June 2005 04:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Seattle's Sluggers:

Beltre ($11.4M)

Boone ($9M)

Sexson ($6M)

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 13 June 2005 15:33 (fifteen years ago) link

Kit Kaat Sluggers:



laurence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 16 June 2005 12:22 (fifteen years ago) link


gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 16 June 2005 15:48 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah, that seems silly. didn't west say they were on good terms, and beltre said he thought it was a joke?

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 9 August 2017 01:03 (three years ago) link

nah fuck joe west

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Wednesday, 9 August 2017 01:29 (three years ago) link

In best promotion ever, #Rangers giving away miniature on-deck circles to honor Adrian Beltre:

— Evan Grant (@Evan_P_Grant) August 11, 2017

mookieproof, Friday, 11 August 2017 15:01 (three years ago) link


ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 11 August 2017 15:06 (three years ago) link

love it

k3vin k., Friday, 11 August 2017 15:26 (three years ago) link

three weeks pass...

out at least four weeks ;_;

mookieproof, Friday, 1 September 2017 20:54 (two years ago) link

Awful! He's having a partial season that ranks with all his other second-greatest seasons.

clemenza, Friday, 1 September 2017 21:04 (two years ago) link

six months pass...

Adrian Beltre got to meet Beltre the Giraffe at the @FortWorthZoo today.

— Cut4 (@Cut4) March 30, 2018

mookieproof, Saturday, 31 March 2018 02:15 (two years ago) link

Adrian Beltre Becomes the Latin American Hit King

— FanGraphs Baseball (@fangraphs) April 5, 2018

mookieproof, Thursday, 5 April 2018 21:10 (two years ago) link

That is just amazing. This guy has blossomed into an All-Timer.

earlnash, Thursday, 5 April 2018 23:00 (two years ago) link

two months pass...
one month passes...

I never get tired of these two guys:

(Extra credit to Beltre--as the announcers point out, he knows when not to joke around.)

clemenza, Wednesday, 8 August 2018 19:35 (two years ago) link

one month passes...

I hope Ade comes back for a final season. He’s been injured and his statline is a touch below recent years but still, he has been playing out of his mind the past couple weeks and his bWAR is a very nice 2.3 (in approx 2/3 of a season.)

omar little, Saturday, 22 September 2018 15:20 (one year ago) link

Hope so too. Otherwise (and it makes no actual difference in his stature), the two partial seasons will end up costing him 500 HR and 100 WAR.

clemenza, Saturday, 22 September 2018 15:26 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

In honor of Adrián Beltré retiring here’s a thread of all of his best, goofiest and most wonderful moments.

The dude was such a vehicle of baseball joy and we’ll all miss his antics.

— Cespedes Family BBQ (@CespedesBBQ) November 20, 2018

mookieproof, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 15:32 (one year ago) link

not complete without:

Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:43 (one year ago) link

mookieproof, Friday, 30 November 2018 21:29 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

@GrantBrisbee Hello Grant, long time reader here. I just wanted to share this very important video with you where Adrian Beltre was shopping at JC Penny with his family and randomly appeared in a commercial where the person had no idea who he was.

— Mark Sandritter (@MarkSandritter) January 24, 2019

mookieproof, Thursday, 24 January 2019 20:39 (one year ago) link

Damn, he didn't even get a chryon

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Thursday, 24 January 2019 20:45 (one year ago) link

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