Bun B: SENSETIVE THUG

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HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY FROM OUR ARTIFICIALLY CONSTRUCTED PLEASURES.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 8 June 2006 13:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Matt as it happens on a personal/professional level I agree with you, I think anybody who knows my shit knows I'm WAY into first-take-best-take/get-it-live stuff - I'm just commenting, rather uncontroversially I'd think but evidently not, that there is some of that authenticist stance in "no punch-ins" that's coming from an interesting place, given that the music itself doesn't come from that sort of performative stance

ethan if you can hear a punch it just means it's a shitty punch, I've seen guys punch in single snare hits at 120 bpm and the end result was indistiguishable from live

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 13:51 (seventeen years ago) link

even major label million dollar albums have shitty obvious punches nowadays

and what (ooo), Thursday, 8 June 2006 13:54 (seventeen years ago) link

true

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:34 (seventeen years ago) link

haha you could really get up on some "how digital editing has ruined music" stuff on this subject if you felt so inclined

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Also there's plenty of rap songs where the rapper duets with himself, calls out a line in the background while rapping in the foreground, starts the next line before the last line has completely ended - so there's obviously lots of multiple takes going on.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:40 (seventeen years ago) link

I was having just this discussion with the Earache label head yesterday, in reference to Deicide's Scars Of The Crucifix, which in its initial form was totally raw and assaultive, but then the drummer went back and put every hi-hat and snare hit perfectly in place in ProTools and all the intensity just drifted away. I mean, it's still a pretty good album (though not a patch on the new one, which features the best lead guitar on any Deicide album ever), but something was lost.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:41 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, digital editing is like anything else, i'm sure it's helped some albums be great in ways they couldn't have been in years past, but Some Kind of Monster really showed me out protooling a whole album and stitching it together can really make something suck on a whole new level. before i saw the movie i wondered why they had written these two-riff songs that went on forever and ever, then in the movie you realize it's because they didn't actually sit there and play stuff all the way through....i always think, at least in my own band, you begin to sense when a certain part is going on too long or getting boring, but that instinct won't ever kick in if you are just getting one good bar then replicating it as many times as you want.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

From Bun B: Sensetive Thug to Nerdy Protools Engineering Gripes in less than 50 posts, good job guys!

mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 8 June 2006 14:56 (seventeen years ago) link

...to metathread posting. ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

god bless jon caramanica

Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Not punching in is a point of pride for singers, too, though I think probably a little harder to acheive for your average singer than for your average rapper. It's not really an authenticity thing (very few singers these days are actually going to hit every note perfectly on the same take) so much as a confidence thing when you're actually in there recording--"Damn, I did a perfect take, I guess I'm really hot today, let's do some more, I'm gonna kill it!" Whereas if you're in there fucking up tracks you're only gonna get worse.

Anyway, all this aside, "I wouldn't dare punch in mixed company" is a great line.

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Bun comes off in that interview as the most charismatic human being ever in the history of the world ever. Ever.

Billy Pilgrim (Billy Pilgrim), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link

there's no other aspect of a rap track that places any privilege on "liveness"-

if I understand correctly hip hop pretty much began as a live phenomenon --- ie a dj rockin parties and this is before the rapper was even a big part of the equation.

it doesn't have to be an old-timey instrument to play it live, anything that makes a noise works fine --- I mean when you put a beat together on an MPC you pretty much bang shit out live, albeit quantized, right?? --- what does somebody mean when they say a track sounds "live" anyway??

and CLEARLY punches are gonna attenuate the feeling of a track --- you're gonna lose some ooomph in exchange for the extra precision/control.

reacher. (reacher), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:38 (seventeen years ago) link

My worry with punching-in/redoing with pro-tools and all that is that in maybe ten years, when the available technology is that much better, aren't they just going to sound glaringly obvious? Or more obvious, in the case of people who can already hear them. Like CGI in films - I caught a bit of some late-nineties film (can't recall which) the other day and the CGI was so visible and made it look shoddy, but I remember that when it was released it seemed hugely realistic. If my eyes have already learnt to tell that ten-year-old CGI's funny-looking, surely when I come back to tracks from now in a few years' time I'll be able to hear the splices and the record could be ruined.

Like everyone else has said, that's an awesome interview.

permanent revolution (cis), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Does visible CGI ruin a movie for you? Do visible rubber monster suits? How about when you can tell when someone is 'acting' rather than simply being themselves?

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean you've always been able to punch in, it's not like that's a new feature on ProTools.

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Bun comes off in that interview as the most charismatic human being ever in the history of the world ever. Ever.
-- Billy Pilgrim (pilgrimbill...), June 8th, 2006.

OTM. Great interview, so much so that it actually makes me feel guilty for not being familiar with the dude's work (other than "Big Pimpin'", of course).

bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Thursday, 8 June 2006 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

It doesn't ruin, only distracts, I think? Naturally I guess you suspend disbelief if the whle thing is compelling enough. Soon I suppose it becomes 'one of those conventions of x period of films' - spaceships suspended on black thread, that thirties melodrama acting style (do I mean thirties?). But... I don't know, I think that would involve investing it with a certain amount of camp? The slight wobble of pitch on vinyl's supposed to be part of its charm, part of its realism, as opposed to cold and clear digital (nb I have few opinions about relative merits of record formats), but the click of a bad punch-in transition? one that wasn't even heard as 'bad' at the time? the tinny sound of slightly-too-precise auttuning that isn't as gloriously working-with-the-medium as Cher's 'Believe'? If I wasn't entirely immersed I think that would throw me off.

permanent revolution (cis), Thursday, 8 June 2006 16:19 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm confused I guess why you think punch-ins from today are going to sound more obvious in ten years than analogue punch-ins from 10 years ago sound today. In ProTools, there's a crossfade tool that lets you smooth out any weirdness in the transition, and this is explicitly used for clicks. This is pretty microscopic and undetectable and I have a hard time believing that our ears are going to evolve to be able to hear it. I dunno. I think you can discuss punching in as an artistic detriment (although I think "assembling" tracks in ProTools rather than punching in a note or two is really the problem here) but technically, I don't think it'll be the "gated reverb" of 2006.

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

>I have a hard time believing that our ears are going to evolve to be able to hear it

Given the direction mastering has been moving in the past few years, I have the feeling most music fans' ears are gonna be devolving as time goes on, getting used/inured to uglier and uglier sounds. A few years from now, you'll be able to punch stuff in with all the subtlety of Captain Beefheart's "The Dust Blows Forward 'n' The Dust Blows Back" and no one will give a shit.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 8 June 2006 17:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Hah, maybe I overstated the case a bit - I'm worried that it might happen but not sure that it necessarily will. But having not imagined that I would be able to see CG and find it fake-looking I'm getting more worried about the things I don't notice now but might in the future - it made me much more aware that things I find undetectable now might not always be so. Maybe this is from reading some of the stuff Nick Southall's been writing recently about audiophilia and loss of sound quality? I don't have highly-trained ears at all - I can recognise glaring autotune occasionally, and while I often imagine I can hear a difference between 320kbps and 192kbps mp3s but I don't know if I really can. So this is entirely outside my experience; it just worries me.
Oddly enough I don't think of punching in as much of an artistic detriment except that relying on it too much would probably lessen the energy of what you're doing. And I have no idea how ProTools works, so I don't know if/how a track assembled in ProTools is particularly different from one produced in any other way, either software-based or using whatever more analogue precursor.

permanent revolution (cis), Thursday, 8 June 2006 17:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, like I say, punching in isn't like CGI or autotune, a new technique that's just been developed and is being deployed before all the kinks are worked out--it's been around almost since the advent of recorded music. ProTools is the working-out-the-kinks stage, not the "incredible new technique" stage.

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 8 June 2006 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

four years pass...

:D :D :D :D

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 October 2010 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link

rmde

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:39 (thirteen years ago) link

what's your deal

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:46 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, great that he has the respect of our national educational institutions, i guess

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:47 (thirteen years ago) link

would audit

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:51 (thirteen years ago) link

i mean, great that he has the respect of our national educational institutions, i guess

― j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:47 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

it's just a cool thing, asshole

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:54 (thirteen years ago) link

i dunno what youre deal is with me but as someone who spent awhile playing jazz i kinda just rughghheghgh at these things
i like that hes getting deserved attention, if that makes u happy

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Thursday, 21 October 2010 23:58 (thirteen years ago) link

idk i think it's cool that a legendary rapper is teaching a college class, it's a pretty simple thing

& what does this have to do w/ jazz?

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:02 (thirteen years ago) link

the institutionalization of cool things is not cool

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:03 (thirteen years ago) link

rofl

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:03 (thirteen years ago) link

fight the power

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:04 (thirteen years ago) link

historicism isnt the same thing at all doofus

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:05 (thirteen years ago) link

criticism either

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:05 (thirteen years ago) link

willing to bet there's some awesome "school's not g4ngsta^" post about to happen from deej now that luriqua doesn't post here anymore

'wich house (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:06 (thirteen years ago) link

was about to say, 'bet theres some really shitty post coming since whiney still posts here' & what do you know

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:06 (thirteen years ago) link

sensitives not thug

ice cr?m, Friday, 22 October 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i knew my post was sub-whiney anyway

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

lol "sub whiney"

truly blunted rhyme fiend (J0rdan S.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

lol

avoyoungdro's number (k3vin k.), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

drown it in olive oil

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link

thread delivers

some droopy HOOS in makeup (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link

"when waka's brother died he said fuck school this is disrepectful to waka's brother rmde TWO QUESTION MARKS"

'wich house (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:09 (thirteen years ago) link

institutionalization of jazz may not be "cool" but it's sort of a necessary substitute for a once-vibrant and competitive scene where the learning & teaching happened on the ground, or it can be

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:16 (thirteen years ago) link

What does 'rmde' mean

Princess TamTam, Friday, 22 October 2010 00:18 (thirteen years ago) link

RIP hip hop

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:19 (thirteen years ago) link

we still have odd future wolf gang kill em all

'wich house (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:22 (thirteen years ago) link

& skyzoo

J0rdan S., Friday, 22 October 2010 00:23 (thirteen years ago) link

and lil b

'wich house (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:23 (thirteen years ago) link

i think we're gonna be okay

J0rdan S., Friday, 22 October 2010 00:24 (thirteen years ago) link

what is "Hip Hop and Religious Studies" class about anyway? Like 5% Nation stuff?

'wich house (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:27 (thirteen years ago) link

it's a class so rice's students can feel like they go to a cool college

J0rdan S., Friday, 22 October 2010 00:30 (thirteen years ago) link

also rice is a religious school so it might be some sort of lip service

J0rdan S., Friday, 22 October 2010 00:30 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^

some droopy HOOS in makeup (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:32 (thirteen years ago) link

really wanna see the syllabus tho

some droopy HOOS in makeup (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 22 October 2010 00:32 (thirteen years ago) link

wow, if only bun b had you guys around to let him know what a mistake he made!

teflon dawn (uptown churl), Friday, 22 October 2010 03:43 (thirteen years ago) link

you guys?? it was just me. man up & name names next time

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link

i dont think its a 'mistake' btw

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link

im more of a 'too bad u couldnt respect him when he was actually making great music' type dude

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 04:30 (thirteen years ago) link

fyi last time someone named your name you got all deej on em

some droopy HOOS in makeup (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 22 October 2010 04:31 (thirteen years ago) link

name display names obv

j. sargent & lil k3v (deej), Friday, 22 October 2010 04:40 (thirteen years ago) link

ok, i'll concede that deej was the only one being a dick. sorry, flu vaccine got my mind in a frenzy ... anyways, not like it, you know, matters at all, but fwiw rice is one of the best universities in the nation, right? not some backwater christian school.

anyways it really speaks more than anything else to your own neuroses if you think anyone who didn't already respect bun b is going to care about this. who is this strawman who only 'respects' rappers when they become faculty members at elite private universities?

teflon dawn (uptown churl), Friday, 22 October 2010 11:44 (thirteen years ago) link

i used to have trouble differentiating this guy from soulja boy, and now i respect him

ice cr?m, Friday, 22 October 2010 12:00 (thirteen years ago) link

bun b = a lecturer, soulja boy = the dean

just sayin, Friday, 22 October 2010 12:01 (thirteen years ago) link

soulja boy tellem abt the many ways in which they can help their alma mater grow and prosper

ice cr?m, Friday, 22 October 2010 12:03 (thirteen years ago) link


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