Matthew Barney: C/D?

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i was too fucking bored by cremaster 3 and too indifferent to everything but the massive amounts of hype to put all the the thought or passion into a response as tracer hand, but i think he's OTM

lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Sunday, 13 July 2003 19:32 (twenty years ago) link

The Cremaster series is a 397 minute postcard from Matthew's Journey To The Center Of Himself. There are references to things we recognize as a species, but translate as individuals. But couldn't we have the same experience talking about the physics of smoke or what clouds look like? What is he acomplishing that's so inovative? People have bizarre dreams every night, are MB's some how more meaningful?

django (django), Sunday, 13 July 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

a paraphrase of Emperor Joseph II's comment to Mozart:

"too many references, my dear Barney"

django (django), Sunday, 13 July 2003 20:20 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.outlawforpeace.com/trade/store/it-bdgad02.jpg

Dada, Sunday, 13 July 2003 20:23 (twenty years ago) link

i dont know, i think that in many ways barney is an outsider artist with money.

look how singualr, hermetic, epic and perverse his vision is, how it is almost cobbled together, and how it mantains its own symbol set.

this is harvey danger at least. (vyvvan girs. have then ame wrong)

anthony easton (anthony), Sunday, 13 July 2003 22:30 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure I follow. Epic and perverse yes, but I haven't seen anything in his films that isn't a refernce to something else. It's funny you chose 'heremetic'. I got into a nasty art fight with some assistant of his one night. He was insulted that my friend refered to MB as 'cryptic'. He felt MB spoke in a tounge so common that anyone, from Zulu to Swede, would be able to understand it, whether they know Poussin or not. I tend to agree, but I find it impossible to seperate him from his art and his art from his hype. Which one of these things makes him important? All of the above?

django (django), Sunday, 13 July 2003 23:15 (twenty years ago) link

i saw Cremaster 3 today in Austin. i liked i guess, but im not hard to impress. thinking about it now, i think i like it more now than when i was watching it. it seemed way too long, too boring, too deliberate in the theater, but it seems better in my memory. i really liked the guggenheim sequence because it seemed like a video game.

ryan (ryan), Monday, 14 July 2003 03:20 (twenty years ago) link

Ooh, think what a great video game that'd make, too. It'd kick the hell out of the Matrix.

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Monday, 14 July 2003 04:22 (twenty years ago) link

i mean hermetic as a closed symbol set, like plants in a terrium, i have only seen the stills though/

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 14 July 2003 04:26 (twenty years ago) link

What Momus likes about Brassens, Barney doesn't have any of. The feel of Brassens's music is a consequence of two things: i) the story he's telling and ii) his attitude towards his role as storyteller (and so inevitably his attitude towards YOU). If Barney has an opinion about his relationship with his story, and thus his relationship to the people he's telling the story to, it's been rigorously excluded from the art itself. Maybe it's because there's not a story there, just a palette of rotating moods obeying some well-hidden formula or other. (Visual artists have something of the old alchemist in them: they work in secret and wait to spring something on the world.) Anyway, whatever pattern or intelligence animates Barney's extraordinary spectacle, its obscurity lights up the fact of its existence with giant blinking exclamation points. I'll never know what strong feeling gripped him, what made this project urgent. Like django said, Cremaster is like someone else's dreams or vacation photos: without someone to tell you a story, a shocking vista is just another shocking vista in a pile of them.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 04:47 (twenty years ago) link

Well, I like that his work is like a choose-your-own-metaphor. He's just provided an empty, yet extravagant frame or container. Maybe it's up to us put the substance in the middle which, conceptually, is really pretty cool. But then shouldn't WE get credit for the peice, having given it meaning? As far as I know, James Turrel follows the same logic but achives astounding results! I walk away from Turrel's work stunned and giddy and hopeful for the future of art. Cremaster makes me mentally exhausted. I could NEVER sit through those movies again, but I could live surrounded by Turrel's pieces for the rest of my life.

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:09 (twenty years ago) link

god my speeling suks

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:10 (twenty years ago) link

If Barney tried to sell me the tricked-out super-detailed car of my dreams sans engine I wouldn't say it was cool, conceptually or otherwise, I'd say it didn't work. Of course I could make the engine myself, or contract someone else to put one in (with Cremaster the equivalent to the latter might be reading the press releases and reviews to tell me what the hell was worth getting that bored for). But in any case I'd be somewhat suspicious of him in the future when he said he "made cars."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:43 (twenty years ago) link

Could it be that the Barneymobile car has an engine but is without a driver?

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:49 (twenty years ago) link

Choose your own metaphor, it's all good! Whatever!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:53 (twenty years ago) link

;)

i thought perhaps that was necessary (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:54 (twenty years ago) link

Barney's attempt at building a car was a chopped up thing made of honeycombs with no doors. I'd rather bike..

we know what's going on, don't we. ;] ;]

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 05:58 (twenty years ago) link

Monster Garage = BETTER THAN MATTHEW BARNEY ON ALL LEVELS

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 06:01 (twenty years ago) link

and more useful! .......or poor, poor, wealthy, handsome, muscular, famous matthew! Such abuse! If I ever get wealthy, handsome, muscular and famous, will they talk about me this way?

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 06:07 (twenty years ago) link

see i dont think it is empty at all, i think that it is full to bursting, we just dont have the code, its like putting unleaded regular when the engine requires desiel.

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 14 July 2003 06:42 (twenty years ago) link

wow, this car metaphor is going places!

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 06:45 (twenty years ago) link

well, i don't think it's "empty". it just seems that you have to show up to a Barney film with the missing half. He leaves out things, things usually fundamental to film and art in general, specifically, a point. But like I said before, it's like a frame for a painting. A plush, detailed and elaborate frame (which has it's own merits, sometimes frames a prettier than the piece itself). But the painting has to be supplied by the viewer. And not all viewers feel the desire to make up their own creation to join with it. {The Boredoms once said that they just make noise. It's the listener that makes it music.} As far as an act of communication goes, they aren't always succesful. Unless you know the "code", like Momus apparently does. But then, isn't that something children do? make up wierd little codes for themselves and their friends? It's hard not to feel excluded and nobody likes that.

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 06:55 (twenty years ago) link

see i dont see that at all, it is almost the triumph of art for arts sake, and really does everything have to mean someting.

and re:narrative--do you bitch to joyce about those things?

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 14 July 2003 07:32 (twenty years ago) link

A triumph? I don't know. Of what exactly? Art for art's sake? We've been down that road so many times already! But I think I haven't explained the "meaning" part very well. There's no rule book about this stuff, so no, art doesn't have to have meaning, and I don't expect it to (especially after the last Biennial..Sheesh!), in fact I like the absence of it in his work, precicely because it lets me decide what it's all about. My personal beef with Barney, as if anyone really gives a crap, is the overwehlming attention he gets and the explainations and adoration of critic after critic.It's like fawing over Justin Timberlake while Momus gets the shaft. ..I have to sleep, this fucking thread is killing me.

django (django), Monday, 14 July 2003 07:52 (twenty years ago) link

but the critical reception for barney isnt overwhelminginly positive, even art forum who slavers over everything gave two basically negative reviews. tyler green at modern art notes calls out the hype and comdemns it as fatous, their has been discussion in the new york times about its lack of utility and in the village voice and new yorker about its cost.

it may be resepcted for his unique vision, and balls out ambition-his world creation, but hated for his lack of plot and narrative, for what many assume to be an elabortate wank job.

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 14 July 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link

I think I'd like his ceramics better.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 July 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.poster.net/koons/koons-michael-jackson-and-bubbles-2102301.jpg

Are you sure?

nickn (nickn), Monday, 14 July 2003 16:44 (twenty years ago) link

four weeks pass...
From this week's Voice:

Jump Cuts
by Michael Atkinson
August 13 - 19, 2003

Renaissance man Matthew Barney is such a busy artistic powerhouse these days (Cremaster 3's climactic movement, "The Order," is out this month on DVD), we thought we'd lend him a hand with the scenarios for the next Cremaster "cycle." No, thank you, Mr. Barney!

Cremaster 8

Wearing a bronze jockstrap, an astronaut's helmet, and a coat of mango-peach latex paint, Barney scales Angkor Wat while the Green Bay Packers sit in an empty swimming pool, taking turns to blow up a used-car-lot balloon figure of Uncle Sam through a valve on its crotch. Cambodians slowly fill up the pool with cups of guacamole. By the time Barney finishes his climb and sings "If I Can't Sell It, I'll Keep Sittin' On It," the Packers are immersed.

Cremaster 6

Whoopi Goldberg reads the Magna Carta over the Yankee Stadium PA system, as a boa constrictor slowly slithers around the bases after a remote-control toy car with a real mouse in the driver's seat. In the outfield, 30 naked women play 30 grand pianos wearing cardboard Dalai Lama masks. When the boa makes it home, fireworks erupt, spelling "I LIKE IKE" in the sky.

Cremaster 7

Strapped together with bungee cords, Barney and a proboscis monkey run through a shopping mall as members of the Bolshoi Ballet and the cast of Mummenschanz battle each other with paintball guns. Barney is dressed as Elizabeth II; the monkey is completely shaved. In Sears, they meet Udo Kier, who's trimming dwarf juniper trees with a toenail cutter. Together the trio make it to the parking lot, board a circus elephant, and ride into the sunset.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 17:53 (twenty years ago) link

7 sounds awesome!

geeta, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 18:06 (twenty years ago) link

I love how he lists them out of numerical order, just like the other ones.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 18:09 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...
so is anyone planning on seeing them at the other cinema in the next couple of weeks? and anyone else who's seen them - are they as good as this claims:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Critic_Review/Guardian_Film_of_the_week/0,4267,1064264,00.html

?

toby (tsg20), Monday, 20 October 2003 12:48 (twenty years ago) link

Cremaster 5 is pretty poor i think - its simply too beautiful to be interesting and doesnt really seem to have any ideas.

Cremaster 3 is good AND bad the order section in the guggenheim is magnificent and there are some genuinely disgusting and shocking images which are quite jolting. as tracer said though its slightly let down by the beauty of the images themselves they seem too gorgeous to be anything other than superficial - the chrysler section (the bulk of the film) goes on far too long.

Cremaster 2 i thought was the strongest - he gets the balance just about right - the gary gilmore murder sequence at the garage and the honey/cum fucking are good - really engaging, as are the salt flats sequences. its let down by the weakness of the relationship of these sections to the Harri Houdini/ Norman Mailer bits - the ending woth Mailer's speech pretty much ruins everything that has gone before it though.

Haven't seen 1 or 4 but i intend to. Overall they are extremely patchy but definatley worth checking out simply because they offer something you will never see the likes of at the movies. Except 5 which is like a bad Peter greenaway film.

The one thing i think that lets the cycle down overall is that the narrative is TOO STRONG. Seriously.

jed (jed_e_3), Monday, 20 October 2003 14:22 (twenty years ago) link

toby i think "it's more interesting than David Blaine" is a weak summation, and false to boot

jed u R being high

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 20 October 2003 15:52 (twenty years ago) link

high? eh?

jed (jed_e_3), Monday, 20 October 2003 15:54 (twenty years ago) link

Cremaster 5 is pretty poor i think - its simply too beautiful to be interesting and doesnt really seem to have any ideas.

but that one was my favorite! maybe even for the reasons you didn't like it. i was even very moved by it.

1 & 4 are ugly boring crap. fuck them and their ideas.

ryan (ryan), Monday, 20 October 2003 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

ideas? narrative?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 20 October 2003 15:56 (twenty years ago) link

:)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 20 October 2003 17:26 (twenty years ago) link

I recently saw C3, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Tracer. Personally, I don't have much of a problem with a lack of narrative or with "shaggy dog" stories. I'm a big fan of strangeness for the sake of strangeness; this has had me in stitches for a good week or so. I guess what gets me about Barney is the lack of joy in his strangeness. Sure, what's going on is weird, but it's Serious. It doesn't risk chaos, I think; it's too carefully orchestrated. This is probably why I liked the final part of C3 the most. That was where the film finally bubbled over into the absurd. I felt like I was allowed to laugh and engage with it much more than with the rest of the film.

Prude (Prude), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 17:29 (twenty years ago) link

cool - that is the only thing i've ever read that's made me want to see (part of) a Matthew Barney film

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

a few exhibits at the venice biennale had really obvious barney influence (one could almost say they were slavish imitations, but that seems to give barney too much credit) ... weird slick white plasticine objects and deformities etc. they were among the most boring exhibits there.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 14:27 (twenty years ago) link

three months pass...
Finally saw Cremaster 3's The Order DVD yesterday. It was interesting, though I'm not sure how much I actually liked it. My initial reaction: Macho Jocky Artfag Mousetrap. Then, watched a bit of the commentary and learned of the rites and mythologies of the Masonic Teen Scene influences and thought that maybe he was tapping into that for a reason. Then I decided that maybe he just tapped into that because it was obviously a great source for lots of crazy fucked up bizarre shit that he could play out. I sorta liked it. But having seen none of the others yet (or the entire C3 for that matter)...

I'll have to get to it over time.

andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Saturday, 31 January 2004 00:27 (twenty years ago) link

the order is the dumbest part of any of the films, I can't figure out why he put this out on dvd and nothing else. don't judge cremaster by this section!

anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Saturday, 31 January 2004 00:32 (twenty years ago) link

yeah it is just stupid to release this on its own although i actually love this section most of C3.

jed_ (jed), Saturday, 31 January 2004 01:17 (twenty years ago) link

Commenting on Cremaster from only seeing The Order = commenting on a movie from seeing the trailer.

dean! (deangulberry), Saturday, 31 January 2004 01:29 (twenty years ago) link

Right on. But I was only commenting on The Order.

andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Saturday, 31 January 2004 21:51 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, not you specifically. Just in general. Many people tend to base their opinions on Cremaster solely from watching the Order (since it is most easily accessible) and it's kind of pointless ... but yes, artfag ... etc.

dean! (deangulberry), Saturday, 31 January 2004 22:30 (twenty years ago) link

four months pass...
ive just come from 4/5th of it...and im not sure what i think. i feel abused and isolated...i took this abstract seires of notes in the theatre, and i am working thru...the fifth one (the mormon one, the gary gilmore one) was the one that killed me the most, and im worried that i am projecting my own shit...cause this film is more of an open text then almost anything else

notes directly:

bagpipe music in the isle of man one is all scratchy and noisy
i really like the colour of testicles
centuar with shorn horns, ron perlman in hellboy,
escape thru tunnels, vas deferens/wombs
all this fucking lubricant
isle of man makes me reconsider girl on a motorcycle-!
swimming thru pearls, like fish roe
cod peices
doves (jacobian doves !?)
couteiers in crimson and orange--twins ?
ribbons all over the place
the lights like ovaries, the angels bless the house
opera=high code for low emotion
pink slit betwixt black leather
drums on empty stage
stuffed/inflatable
pools of water
lillies ribbons
4(goat,excess, servents, centaurs)
dancers,doves,mistresses)
baubled pairs
climbs the bean stock
black leather bodice
hand peice of two glass spheres connected by gold
two pennies
love on stage as an assumed 3rd audience, this does not
orchestra as audeince
like a whistler painting
underwater, baptism/drowning
min black on a black horse, are they dying together
winter field, black trees
emph. on footwear
naked under his cloak, white bone futursitc goves and manacles
langourus cuts
tragic, almost camp, so over time (does it realize this?)
germanic (remake of wagner)
horse rides alone (western)
dives off bridge in mantacels naked (houdini and the water sequences in 4, the centuar dives beneath the floor, handcuffed or weighted)
swelling strings
greygreen river much like the forrest (intercessional ?)
strange biomechincals (pool, shoe, robotic vaginas and anuses, unrelated or pseudorelated to ursla andress)
broad silent acting more kabuki then gish
18th centuy polychrome itaalian clupture of angelic kids
4 mermaids live under roe
full size, with fetal faces
marie attonies, wating to rise to coutiers
saphhic
barney comes in, as neptune, with red tulip feet, walks into the water, the attendants come and tie ribbons to genderless gentila, and then doves take the ribbons and fly it to the celling, pulling out (cremaster) his cock
majorettes/busby berkley one idea taken too far
sex--bees over whelming
houdini
salt flats
norman mailer (who wrote about gilmore, and gilmore is in this one)
rythimic
sacred/secert rituals in rooms shaped like honeycombs (lds deseret)
rock and roll (slayer--inside joke--cf blood revenge(ww) lds (think laban)
Brahma Bulls
rock and roll as GGs first break w. the church
Desert
wax phallus
everything overwhelmed w. bees (work, efficency but also groupthink)
matthew barney and his ego
does everything have subliminal meanings ?
(dino gas)
two cars connected by honeycomb (replacement, intercessary again, conduit)
slc tabernacle, w. 12 men--scale model
petrojelly everywhere (in the flapdown wind visor)
old fashioned american gothics (the gilmore murder/the architechture of slc)
12 apostles, 12 tribes, 12 riders, 12 flags, latter 12 bison
american/canuck flags
rodeo (angola + gary on the bull, bull dies as gary rides, sacfricial)
circle of salt,
4 beehive sentinals
cops on mounts in atheltic patterns
2nd half about drones and queens,
mounties, lakes, rocky mtns, banff springs

surreal in its most litearal sense

anthony, Sunday, 20 June 2004 06:26 (nineteen years ago) link

best poem ever

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 13:18 (nineteen years ago) link

three months pass...
has anyone seen the new cadillac ads that clearly rip off the car scenes from Cremaster 3? The cars drive into a lush building lobby, do a synchronized dance, and then a new cadillace comes tearing in and they all back off. Maybe Barney directed this but I doubt it. Can he sue them?

kyle (akmonday), Saturday, 2 October 2004 18:09 (nineteen years ago) link

i noticed that too! how weird. i almost figured it was coincidence rather than a rip off.

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 2 October 2004 18:43 (nineteen years ago) link

What's the deal with River of Fundament?

This Is Not An ILX Username (LaMonte), Wednesday, 26 March 2014 19:31 (ten years ago) link

sounds typically insane

akm, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 23:26 (ten years ago) link

i admit to finding the idea of this guy's movies--or more like, sections of the movies--more pleasant than watching a whole part of the cremaster cycle :(

espring (amateurist), Wednesday, 26 March 2014 23:38 (ten years ago) link

i watched all of cremaster over the course of about a week, it was totally fun

akm, Thursday, 27 March 2014 03:52 (ten years ago) link

Best review I've seen of it yet

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Thursday, 27 March 2014 03:58 (ten years ago) link

:)

i guess i just felt, when watching them, that the shots don't seem to have any large-scale interaction that would make them more than the sum of their parts. it's like a series of maximalist images, one after the other like a slide show. but i admit i saw them years ago.

espring (amateurist), Thursday, 27 March 2014 04:13 (ten years ago) link

Re: the DVD issue, these all seem to be on Youtube. Any point watching them there?

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Thursday, 27 March 2014 04:26 (ten years ago) link

two months pass...

should i see 'river of fundament' in london in a couple weeks y/n

♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Tuesday, 17 June 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link

i might go on the monday. Just thinking it through.

woof, Wednesday, 18 June 2014 10:05 (nine years ago) link

I will see anything this dude does ever.

Pew Nornographers (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 June 2014 10:35 (nine years ago) link

ten months pass...

Just saw Fundament in Los Angeles. Thought it was excellent. Not as complex, dense, or conceptually interesting as Cremaster, but very visceral and immersive. The art-kids were down on Barney's hubris, as they always are, but truthfully I have a lot of trouble thinking of anyone else who does "blockbuster art films" like these. Are there any?

Desert_Fox, Monday, 27 April 2015 07:29 (eight years ago) link

Visionary artist Matthew Barney makes his BAM debut with the world premiere screening of River of Fundament, a radical reinvention of Norman Mailer’s novel Ancient Evenings. In collaboration with composer Jonathan Bepler, Barney combines traditional modes of narrative cinema with filmed elements of performance, sculpture, and opera, reconstructing Mailer’s hypersexual story of Egyptian gods and the seven stages of reincarnation, alongside the rise and fall of the American car industry.

hahaha one of the absolute worst books, and i say that as a big mailer fan

now i want to see this, though ... how long was it?

the late great, Tuesday, 28 April 2015 06:02 (eight years ago) link

It was 6.5 hours (including two 30-minute intermissions). So not that far off from the entire Cremaster Cycle. The Mailer thing is a pretty good send-up of his obscurantism: a novel no one has ever read, and an author who is world-famous but (at least from the perspective of academia) is hardly read nowadays, even in the United States, aside from White Negro and American Dream. And I imagine Mailer's profile is even lower in the mostly European countries where this has been screening?

Desert_Fox, Tuesday, 28 April 2015 18:00 (eight years ago) link

Not related to River of Fundament, but I'd be really interested to learn what if anything Barney's said about Lynda Benglis. I'm finishing a paper on Benglis (undergrad, nothing fancy or probably even particularly good) and it really seems like there's a connection between her beeswax lozenges (here or here or etc) and Barney's "field emblem," especially the Vaseline version in Drawing Restraint 9.

Probably either not really or totally obvious, but fuck it, why not...

You guys are caterpillar (Telephone thing), Wednesday, 29 April 2015 01:06 (eight years ago) link

Not sure I see the connection to the Field Emblem, though you may be on to something with the materials. Cremaster used Vaseline/plastic/beeswax (very explicitly in Cremaster 2), and Fundament moves over to gold leaf and metals, roughly following Benglis's trajectory. And I should maybe also add that Fundament features many gold-leaf phalluses and turds.

Desert_Fox, Wednesday, 29 April 2015 17:57 (eight years ago) link

The general "lozenge" shape with a horizontal division at the center- it's not as apparent on all of Benglis's beeswax paintings but there's a line where she started brushing outward vertically.

I'll have to check out River of Fundament if I can.

You guys are caterpillar (Telephone thing), Wednesday, 29 April 2015 22:33 (eight years ago) link

6.5 hours?!? no thanks

the late great, Wednesday, 29 April 2015 23:53 (eight years ago) link

three years pass...

saw this exhibit tday, p cool - https://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/exhibition/matthew-barney-redoubt

johnny crunch, Monday, 4 March 2019 01:33 (five years ago) link


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