rolling "Is This Racist?" thread

to frogbs: It seems from a lot of your posts that one thing you're very concerned about is people considering you an asshole for doing certain things or thinking certain things or laughing about certain things -- things that you may consider to be normative, widespread behavior. The solution to that is either a) Don't care what people think about you, or b) Don't do/say things that make people think you're an asshole. The answer is not, however, c) Try to convince them that the behavior is actually not asshole behavior. That's gonna be a waste of everyone's time.

critical difference is that the jokes are about PATERNO not the mothers or the children

you still wouldn't though, right?

in the same way the race humor I actually do find funny isn't making fun of the people who are that race as much as they are about the people who believe these stereotypes. You know at the end of Harold & Kumar when the police do the sketches of the "fugitives" and they're both drawn as terrible stereotypes? The joke isn't "the Asian guy has buck teeth", it's the idea that someone that a police artist would be ignorant to draw a stereotype that doesn't look anything like the guy they're trying to catch outside of the guy's assumed race

Yeah, frogbs - Shakey made that distinction way upthread IIRC.

thanks for ruining Harold and Kumar

The answer is not, however, c) Try to convince them that the behavior is actually not asshole behavior. That's gonna be a waste of everyone's time.

actually I was going to post about how I'm starting to change my mind to agree with silby's post about how everyone is an asshole (even though he was likely joking around) but I'm starting to get carpal tunnel here

i'm sure that this will read as "fascist" or "whitetarded" to some, but wtf, here goes:

part of the problem with discussions of "racism" is that we (westerners and especially americans) have attached an enormous stigma to the word itself. when our conventional examples of racism encompass institutional atrocities like slavery and the holocaust, to be racist is not just to be wrong, but to be deeply and profoundly wrong. with that sort of moral weight attached to it, racism something very much like "pure evil".

this makes the conventional historical definition of the term (negative prejudice based on race) morally insufficient. individual prejudice can certainly be harmful, but it's also quite ordinary, perhaps even intrinsic to the human condition. whether or not it's race-based, we're all prejudiced to some extent or another. and accusations of virulent evil lose their moral force when they can be applied to all people equally.

therefore, we attempt to justify the awful moral stigma that our awareness of the worst extremes of racist prejudice attaches to the "r-word". we do this by insisting that racism is not mere prejudice based on race, but rather the systemic power that can transform mere individual prejudice into pervasive institutional oppression. while individual prejudice might not be sufficient to justify the moral stigma attached to the word, institutional oppression is.

it's a cart-before-the-horse response, an after-the-fact attempt to justify the moral power we've attached to the word "racism" and also to corral that massive power so that it can only be directed at appropriate targets. unfortunately, this attempted redefinition makes it terribly difficult to speak sensibly of racism. the perfectly useful old definition still persists in conventional usage, and we've hardly reduced the tendency of people to overstate the moral evil of and objective harm caused by simple individual prejudice (of the sort that isn't necessarily reflective of institutional racism).

that's why i prefer the phrase "institutional racism" which describes something that very clearly does deserve all the moral opprobrium we can muster. unfortunately, this division robs plain old ordinary "racism" of some of its moral force. it becomes something smaller than and distinct from the oppressive exercise of institutional power, and at that point, it seems to become a venal rather than a cardinal sin.

it is true that it's very important that we make sure the word "racism" isn't too offensive to people

Yeah, frogbs - Shakey made that distinction way upthread IIRC.

right, all I'm saying is that one version of this is not particularly harmful

I saw on TV once where a black comissioner was racist against a white cop and got him fired and that made me pretty upset. Plus I think it happended on one of those shows about teaching in the city. This shit happens all the time. Plus I read in this email from my uncle about those firemen.

my apologizes to contenderizer but I agree with his post completely and I think that's part of the reason why I have been making an ass of myself on this thread

like the 19 year old who got put on the child sex offender list for life because he had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend said, sometimes you have to be careful with labels

…said the vicar to the duchess.

it is true that it's very important that we make sure the word "racism" isn't too offensive to people

― I spend a lot of time thinking about apricots (DJP), Friday, January 27, 2012 1:56 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dunno if that was directed at me, but i described the possible reduction of the moral stigma attached to the word "racism" as an unfortunate consequence of an increased focus on "institutional racism". my primary point was linguistic and moral specificity (as relates to sorts of intellectual/moral dissonance that can result when that specificity is lost).

like the 19 year old who got put on the child sex offender list for life because he had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend said, sometimes you have to be careful with labels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#United_States

{Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2423(b)} forbids traveling in interstate or foreign commerce to engage in "illicit sexual conduct" with a minor. 2423(f) refers to Chapter 109A as its bright line for defining "illicit sexual conduct", as far as non-commercial sexual activity is concerned. For the purposes of age of consent, the only provision applicable is {Chapter 109A, 18 U.S.C. 2243(a)}. 2243(a) refers to situations where such younger person is under the age of 16 years, has attained 12 years of age, and the older person is more than 4 years older than the 12-to-15-year-old (persons under 12 are handled under 18 U.S.C. 2241(c) under aggravated sexual abuse). So, the age is 12 years if one is within 4 years of the 12-to-15-year-old's age, 16 under all other circumstances. This most likely reflects Congressional intent to not unduly interfere with a state's age of consent law, which would have been the case if the age was set to 18 under all circumstances. This law is also extraterritorial in nature to U.S. Citizens and Residents who travel outside of the United States.

lol, okay wasn't there a major news story about some high school athlete who went to jail over this or am I just wrong about everything today?

why do people tell jokes at all? what joy does any kind of joke offer? it's really a matter of a pretty widespread belief that offensive things are generally funnier than non-offensive things and that that racial stereotypes = offensive? have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?

- frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), vrijdag 27 januari 2012 21:31 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://images.askmen.com/galleries/model/jerry-seinfeld/pictures/jerry-seinfeld-picture-1.jpg

my apologizes to contenderizer but I agree with his post completely and I think that's part of the reason why I have been making an ass of myself on this thread

hi frogs

to frogbs: It seems from a lot of your posts that one thing you're very concerned about is people considering you an asshole for doing certain things or thinking certain things or laughing about certain things -- things that you may consider to be normative, widespread behavior. The solution to that is either a) Don't care what people think about you, or b) Don't do/say things that make people think you're an asshole. The answer is not, however, c) Try to convince them that the behavior is actually not asshole behavior. That's gonna be a waste of everyone's time.

― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 3:52 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this post is OTM and should end discussion to frogs ITT imo.

i feel like people still bother picking at his perspective b/c its so obviously wrong, where there are people who I think are wrong in more influential & unfortunate ways (contenderizer for ex) that might be more worth our time engaging with

otoh, a more productive use of everyone's time is not being on ilx, so

I had to stop thinking about "being productive" years ago I was spending too much time worrying about how I was spending my time

either way I'm kind of upset at how this thread has gone, in part because I'm realizing that saying "friends talking shit to each other" has translated to everyone else as "white guys trying to perpetuate stereotypes" which I guess is something I kinda deserve, but also because I'm starting to see how inarticulate I can be and how that's causing everyone to think I'm walking around cracking jokes about fried chicken and math homework

smdh

where there are people who I think are wrong in more influential & unfortunate ways (contenderizer for ex)

― guilt is a useless emoticon (D-40), Friday, January 27, 2012 2:23 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

inevitability, thy name is deej

sigh , what are you so afraid of jon?

probably shaking his head so hard it falls off his neck

Pretty much.

Someday, you will understand

This is kind of like giving someone a business card that says "turn over for great discount" on both sides and watching him flip it over and over and over for 3 hours

discus

first, we need to define the term "racism", which I believe has not been done to my liking yet

legit lol

ok then, let's take it from the top folks!

I am glad that I will be away from the internet all weekend.

what do you see in this image?

http://www.frogstore.com/images/d_10981.jpg

because, the only thing I see is a bunch of frogs. and I'M the racist one!?

I was in the middle of trying to figure out what the clusterfuck was about when I was pulled up abruptly by this.

besides some references to things more deep-seeded in black culture

NOT "DEEP-SEEDED." THE PHRASE IS "DEEPLY SEATED." "DEEP-SEEDED" IS THE RESULT OF PEOPLE HEARING THINGS WRONG AND THEN TYPING AS THOUGH THEY HAD UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY HEARD. THANK YOU.

I could care less

ninth google result for "deep-seated" (no adverb aero): http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/cspanjunkie/barack-obama-has-deep-seated-hatred-wh

NOT "DEEP-SEEDED." THE PHRASE IS "DEEPLY SEATED." "DEEP-SEEDED" IS THE RESULT OF PEOPLE HEARING THINGS WRONG AND THEN TYPING AS THOUGH THEY HAD UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY HEARD. THANK YOU.

― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, January 27, 2012 5:59 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this has been driving me nuts lately thank u

holy shit I think frogs just made a funny

two funnnies. he got all wry at the end of the day

http://s18.postimage.org/d526kgwl5/frogbslollz.jpg

Americans, please tell me what to make of this from a Murdoch tabloid:

WHAT does the self-titled "new king of pop" do on his day off, you might ask? Well, shop, of course.

While his contemporaries tend to head out for a fried chicken feed, Big Day Out headliner Kanye West made a beeline for Sydney's fashion hub within hours of landing.

http://i.imgur.com/awnBU.jpg

haha wtf

I... don't get it?

black people eat fried chicken

also Kanye lives off nectar

mmmm, i would kill for some fried chicken right now.

i thought maybe "fried chicken feed" was some weird australian junk food that's sold at food stands at fairs and festivals where they put actual chicken feed in a fryer and kanye's contemporaries here were a bunch of aussie bands playing the festival

you think too much.

Its blatantly saying "while other black rappers would go and eat fried chicken, Kanye be shoppin".

And that is the most fucking embarrasing thing Ive ever read but then again it is a Murdoch paper so why am I even suprised.

While the other black-fellas would rather go eat watermelon, the star of the minstrel show prefers to go cakewalking in his choicest finery:, a black derby hat, a carnation conspicuous in his button hole, a polka-dotted ascot and white gloves.