Like, a good chunk of the things that pop up on this thread can be chalked under "idiot didn't think things through" but that idiot also grew up in a society that never actually made him/her think about those things in the first place.
You can lead a frog to culture but you can't make him think.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
Laurel, I'd assume some of what I said myself or a few others actually fall in the category according to how Dan worded it!
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
re: aimless and my last post
though, okay, the "tends" and "affinity" language does allow for a lot more subtlety than i was granting. retract the "absurdly presumptive" business with all apologies. was caught up a bit in the heat of the moment.
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
I think I understand the value of not making race jokes in public
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:11 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
You miss the point. It's still not fucking okay to make them in private. You say it's not harmful - it is. You're perpetuating that shit, even if it doesn't leave the walls of your little in-group in overt ways, it does matter, it does count, and you're a fucking prick if you think it doesn't.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
what would you guys say the moved fucked up country is re: racism
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
most
if all of ilx were to go to the mirror once a day, look in it, and say "the racist is me" we would have a different world
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time.
Was going to say, if someone -- let's say his name is Toad Cowpatty -- says lolsome racist shit when he feels relaxed and "safe" around friends, maybe he's a racist?
― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
I fall into that category, too because lol small town full of white people. But once you start to see the wider picture, you're responsible for trying to keep seeing it, and to see it even more clearly, all the time.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
If the entire thrust of the term 'institutional racism' is just acknowledging that racism exists within a broader cultural context, then I don't think we're arguing. I agree with that entirely and I don't believe there's racism that is somehow a-contextual.
The way I understood institutional racism was actually as the manifestation of racism through institutional policy as opposed to the explicit racism you might see in individuals or racist organizations. So - drug policy in the United States? Institutional racism. Using a racially charged slur? Not institutional racism.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
thank you, c
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
guys why you want to ruin frogbs' country club it's just a bit of fun
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
And so my only beef w/ zach was that using a slur and crafting racist policy is both an example of racism. If however you are just saying that both exist within some really broad institution called American Society -- well, we're just talking then about what institutions are, not about what racism is.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
OTM.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
Well that lovefest for frogbs this morning ended quick.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time. He might not be really seen as racist by people who aren't privy to his line of thought, but his route through life and ideas on politics and ethics are pretty much an outgrowth of the belief that some of these racist or biased ideas are true.
yes, this is one guy you know, but saying that anyone who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
For "institution", it might be better to just say "the Man". <--alert! joeky!
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
why are they saying these jokes in private and not in public? BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
Frogs, seriously. Why would you *want* to make race jokes unless you're a racist? What exquisite joy do race jokes offer that I'm missing here?
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
one who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far
smh so damn hard I'm cracking vertebrae
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
great article nakh
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
I think the standing issue in the thread is whether "..institutions such as public government bodies, private business corporations (such as media outlets), and universities (public and private)" can really be disconnected from the system of society at large. They're concrete organizations, but really connected enough that most people are networked into this web.
So if you strictly think institutional racism has to come from one of these organizations directly, then strictly speaking, non-institutional racism does exist and zach is kind of stretching the definition. If you believe that there is "a system" that is independent of concrete institutions -- say, American society at large -- then you're going to say that all racism is institutional.
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
fwiw horrible jokes are only funny if you never know someone who's been discriminated against because they're black, white, gray, purple, gay, or a dead baby
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
exception: holocaust jokes are always funny
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
xxp Yeah, that's why I think I lost the thread of the conversation for a bit. I thought we were arguing about what racism meant. Really we were discussing what 'institutional' meant.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
xxxxp Or female. Or a nun. Or an elephant in a refrigerator.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
except the one about pizzas not screaming in the oven, they didn't put live people in the ovens, read a book
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, i don't find holocaust jokes funny fyi.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/gif-frog-love-copy.gif
― joepa mi pinga (am0n), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 3:29 PM (19 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Yeah, what the fuck was that?
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
terrible meta-joke? *hides in shame*
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
xs-post - Also, while I would not call it a lovefest (really Jon?! smdh) I take back my earlier sentiments. You're a fucking shithead.
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
um I think that was sarcasm, adding to my list
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
why do people tell jokes at all? what joy does any kind of joke offer? it's really a matter of a pretty widespread belief that offensive things are generally funnier than non-offensive things and that that racial stereotypes = offensive? have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?
btw I hate that I have to make this clear but I'm not talking about myself here! I found that type of humor pretty uninteresting past the age of 15
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
err - not you Amon
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
lol
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
no, try again dude
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
You're a fucking shithead.
What the fuck? I didn't even mention you, it was a blanket zing about the MULTIPLE people this morning that were saying, in essence, "he's not so bad".
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
frogbs, if you were nowhere near the cookie jar, why are you holding a glass of milk as you wipe cookie crumbs off your shirt?
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
x-psot - omg I wasn't calling you a shithead!!!
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 12:28 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
this (mh via mordy) is a v good point
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry! I saw the part where you were shaking your head at me and through you were still directing that at me!
(xpost)
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
thought... stupid swype
have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?
I screen all comedies in private, away from the oppressively unfunny presence of actual minorities
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
I think everyone has come out of this thread having learned something today, excepting of course frogs.
― beachville, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
x-post - Yeah, it wasn't clear - sorry.
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
Oh man, now all we need is lex to chime in on comedy and this thread will encompass everything about ilx ever.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
Not really, no. And if they're all filled with racist shit, I'm glad I haven't.
I like plenty of 'offensive' humour but none of it is based on assumptions about people's innate worth.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
everyone otm lock it down
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
frogbs fwiw there is a difference between making a joke about a racial stereotype - like in, say, the Jerk where Steve Martin insists he is black - and making racist jokes. Stereotypes can be funny when they are ridiculed/punctured, when they are used to make fun of a specific subset of people, they are simply racist.
xp
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link