rolling "Is This Racist?" thread

a semantics argument is inherently semantically-based xp

I have basically been in agreement with DJP and zach, but I am a little mystified by the severity of Matt P's beef with contenderizer. I don't think contenderizer was ever making an argument form the "white people are victims of racism too" camp. Unless I missed something? This went by quickly, but I only recall seeing a few posts early on that were actually arguing that.

contenderizer must die for frogbs' sins

http://www.seeklogo.com/images/T/tumblr-logo-941B107660-seeklogo.com.gif

I believe the meaning of institutional ____ is that certain beliefs, policies, and prejudices exist at a number of different levels of an institutional structure, and that they often work in tandem to deny the rights of a particular group and privilege another group. But I also believe that there are numerous institutions, some as large as the colonial project of the Western world, some unique to particular governments in particular countries, some corporate cultures, communal cultures, familial cultures. Is racism that primarily exists and is perpetuated within a familial system 'institutional'? Not all of these institutions share the same racist beliefs. In some it is very pronounced, in others it is totally silent + implicit. I think an intelligible discussion of race will account for all these nuances and subtleties, and not try to argue that racism means one particular thing and nothing else.

The "institution" under discussion here as I understand it is American society, which is why pretty much all of these things fall under the umbrella of institutional racism. If you want to make the distinction between, say, society at large and specific businesses/organizations within that society, that's fine I guess, but it misses the point that there are a lot of things that are, if not outright barriers, definitely impediments in the way of a person of color and assumptions about them in our society that an otherwise equivalent white person wouldn't have to deal with.

Like, a good chunk of the things that pop up on this thread can be chalked under "idiot didn't think things through" but that idiot also grew up in a society that never actually made him/her think about those things in the first place.

xp: lol iatee OTM

btw frogbs, it might be ok among your friends to crack racist shit and have amateur comedian hour or whatever, but... really, it's a bad idea in the long term. There's only so much you can do with that and talk shit and pretend that you have "real" feelings underneath before your public persona is completely the racist/sexist/homophobic bullshit. If people only see you acting that way, then guess what? That's you.

I think I understand the value of not making race jokes in public

you can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argument because a semantics argument is inherently semantically-based?

unless I am mistaken, this means your approach is required to be semantically-based.

I went to south africa recently and boy are my arms tired

Dan, it'd be useful for someone who does get it to point out how a possible less egregious case of the "idiot didn't think things through" is actually explaining a manifestation of something systemic.

but seriously folks race and racism is pretty crazy in south africa

contenderizer, since you have been taking a very semantically-based approach to this discussion, I defy you to defend your characterization of my speaking one the one hand of a 'tendency' and on the other of an 'affinity' as being "cut-and-dried terms". This is like trying to beat me about the face and head using a cloud for a weapon.

― Aimless, Friday, January 27, 2012 11:58 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i meant that describing this discussion in terms of a position that "white ppl tend to go with" in opposition to one that "non-whites have a much stronger affinity for" racializes an otherwise abstract disagreement in very explicit terms. i don't reject your argument, but i'm not sure that it's either true or productive.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200003270024

every car I was in in south africa was playing nikki minaj for some reason

I think I understand the value of not making race jokes in public

I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time. He might not be really seen as racist by people who aren't privy to his line of thought, but his route through life and ideas on politics and ethics are pretty much an outgrowth of the belief that some of these racist or biased ideas are true.

Pretty sure he supports Ron Paul, actually

Mostly I just hurt inside because I can't say the n-word or start a club for just dudes or whites.

Like, a good chunk of the things that pop up on this thread can be chalked under "idiot didn't think things through" but that idiot also grew up in a society that never actually made him/her think about those things in the first place.

You can lead a frog to culture but you can't make him think.

Laurel, I'd assume some of what I said myself or a few others actually fall in the category according to how Dan worded it!

re: aimless and my last post

though, okay, the "tends" and "affinity" language does allow for a lot more subtlety than i was granting. retract the "absurdly presumptive" business with all apologies. was caught up a bit in the heat of the moment.

I think I understand the value of not making race jokes in public

― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:11 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

You miss the point. It's still not fucking okay to make them in private. You say it's not harmful - it is. You're perpetuating that shit, even if it doesn't leave the walls of your little in-group in overt ways, it does matter, it does count, and you're a fucking prick if you think it doesn't.

what would you guys say the moved fucked up country is re: racism

most

if all of ilx were to go to the mirror once a day, look in it, and say "the racist is me" we would have a different world

I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time.

Was going to say, if someone -- let's say his name is Toad Cowpatty -- says lolsome racist shit when he feels relaxed and "safe" around friends, maybe he's a racist?

I fall into that category, too because lol small town full of white people. But once you start to see the wider picture, you're responsible for trying to keep seeing it, and to see it even more clearly, all the time.

If the entire thrust of the term 'institutional racism' is just acknowledging that racism exists within a broader cultural context, then I don't think we're arguing. I agree with that entirely and I don't believe there's racism that is somehow a-contextual.

The way I understood institutional racism was actually as the manifestation of racism through institutional policy as opposed to the explicit racism you might see in individuals or racist organizations. So - drug policy in the United States? Institutional racism. Using a racially charged slur? Not institutional racism.

thank you, c

guys why you want to ruin frogbs' country club it's just a bit of fun

And so my only beef w/ zach was that using a slur and crafting racist policy is both an example of racism. If however you are just saying that both exist within some really broad institution called American Society -- well, we're just talking then about what institutions are, not about what racism is.

Was going to say, if someone -- let's say his name is Toad Cowpatty -- says lolsome racist shit when he feels relaxed and "safe" around friends, maybe he's a racist?

― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OTM.

Well that lovefest for frogbs this morning ended quick.

I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time. He might not be really seen as racist by people who aren't privy to his line of thought, but his route through life and ideas on politics and ethics are pretty much an outgrowth of the belief that some of these racist or biased ideas are true.

yes, this is one guy you know, but saying that anyone who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far

For "institution", it might be better to just say "the Man". <--alert! joeky!

yes, this is one guy you know, but saying that anyone who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far

why are they saying these jokes in private and not in public? BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG

Frogs, seriously. Why would you *want* to make race jokes unless you're a racist? What exquisite joy do race jokes offer that I'm missing here?

one who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far

smh so damn hard I'm cracking vertebrae

great article nakh

I think the standing issue in the thread is whether "..institutions such as public government bodies, private business corporations (such as media outlets), and universities (public and private)" can really be disconnected from the system of society at large. They're concrete organizations, but really connected enough that most people are networked into this web.

So if you strictly think institutional racism has to come from one of these organizations directly, then strictly speaking, non-institutional racism does exist and zach is kind of stretching the definition. If you believe that there is "a system" that is independent of concrete institutions -- say, American society at large -- then you're going to say that all racism is institutional.

fwiw horrible jokes are only funny if you never know someone who's been discriminated against because they're black, white, gray, purple, gay, or a dead baby

exception: holocaust jokes are always funny

xxp Yeah, that's why I think I lost the thread of the conversation for a bit. I thought we were arguing about what racism meant. Really we were discussing what 'institutional' meant.

xxxxp Or female. Or a nun. Or an elephant in a refrigerator.

except the one about pizzas not screaming in the oven, they didn't put live people in the ovens, read a book

yeah, i don't find holocaust jokes funny fyi.

http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/gif-frog-love-copy.gif

yeah, i don't find holocaust jokes funny fyi.

― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 3:29 PM (19 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, what the fuck was that?

terrible meta-joke? *hides in shame*

xs-post - Also, while I would not call it a lovefest (really Jon?! smdh) I take back my earlier sentiments. You're a fucking shithead.

um I think that was sarcasm, adding to my list

Frogs, seriously. Why would you *want* to make race jokes unless you're a racist? What exquisite joy do race jokes offer that I'm missing here?

why do people tell jokes at all? what joy does any kind of joke offer? it's really a matter of a pretty widespread belief that offensive things are generally funnier than non-offensive things and that that racial stereotypes = offensive? have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?

btw I hate that I have to make this clear but I'm not talking about myself here! I found that type of humor pretty uninteresting past the age of 15

err - not you Amon