Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (novel, miniseries, and forthcoming film to be directed by Tomas Alfredson)

It wasn't difficult to follow but it demanded attention (the audience of sixtysomethings snored loudly), and the last fifteen minutes consisted of a "Murder, She Wrote"-style let-me-tell-you-how-it-REALLY-happened denouement

Is Gary Oldman so good an actor that when he disappears into a role like this it's so complete that he doesn't give a performance? I didn't find him very interesting. I did snap to attention whenever John Hurt and his bullfrog face appeared though.

i got sick of the brown-grey dinginess of everything. yeah yeah europe in the 70s i get it.

Usually I complain about "Mad Men"-style "LOL look how things have changed," but not this time. Alfredsom has an eye for the absurd: the owl on fire swooping out of the fireplace; Santa with the Lenin hat.

now that i've seen the bbc version, oldman vs guinness is a harsh comparison - the movie isn't about smiley to anything like the same extent

The actors all hit their notes (I particularly the deftness with which Alfredson handles the revelation of a key character's homosexuality) but, as I did with the miniseries, I wanted more friction from these men.

*I particularly liked

I was surprised at how abstract and oblique this film was. I don't know how it would have made sense to me if I weren't already familiar with the story. It really made me realize how exposition-heavy the mini series is. This was the exact opposite, expecting us to infer a heck of a lot from minimal gestures.

The circus headquarters came off as very sci-fi or even steampunkish. Are those little boxy conference rooms a real life detail or just creative set design?

this movie had me trying to puzzle if oldman's recent preference for minimalist performances is a real aesthetic/artistic preference that he's grown into, or if he's just tired of being pigeonholed

have some more thoughts, but im gonna wait until i finish the mini to post them (have watched first two eps)

the abstractness and obliquity are the film's best assests for me, as a straight story it falls very short i think

the conference room insulated from noise is a detail from the novel, btw, altho the film's realisation of it doesn't feel remotely true to the book

Was there any story-benefit for

SPOILER

- letting the audience think Prideaux is killed
- killing Thesinger
- killing Irina

apart from trying to pack in some cinematicness? It had the effect of making Moscow seem more thuggish than crafty.

well Moscow was!

killing irina sets up smiley's most ruthless moment, when he allows tarr to think that she can be saved because tarr is still of use to him

i really dug this movie, but it creates sort of a catch 22 i guess. i was really into the movie and left it wanting to have the world fleshed out more, so i watched the miniseries... which then makes the movie seem a bit slight in comparison because of how many details are elided - i think they did about the best job they could though

after viewing the movie the only thing that i was slightly dissatisfied with was oldman's perf. i got a kick out of his constantly probing eyes (like an owl), and his accent was quite nice, but i didnt think much else of it. i wanted him to hit a grand slam, and it was more like a ground rule double. i was even more dissatisfied when i saw how much more guinness did with the same role - though to be fair it wasnt really the same role, the movie's smiley was really pared down with fewer character moments, which makes me less than certain whether or not im judging the performance or judging the role

there are things i thought the movie did better (all the ricky tarr stuff was much more artfully presented without really omitting anything that would deepen our understanding of his story), and i thought a lot of the supporting perfs were great - john hurt (who was actually considered for smiley - that might've been a more interesting movie), mark strong, and colin firth really impressed me with how much he suggested about his character with very little screen time, though i would later see that he got his method of manipulating his glasses from ian richardson's bill haydon

the Ricky Tarr monologue in the movel, original miniseries, and new version are a dramatic dead-end. I don't know why.

*is

In the novel it was interminable.

i really love how the tv version kind of starts off on this note of smiley being this totally out-of-the-loop outsider who is "too old for this shit", and then he sits down with the british agents at the estate house to meet with the spy-on-the-run, and he takes off his glasses and puts them back on and gives this dude a look which says in an instant that he's the smartest and toughest dude around and it's like "oh shit."

― ('_') (omar little), Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:43 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

i actually said 'damn!' out loud at that shot

haha. oldman is so good. has he really never won an oscar?

― tylerw, Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:58 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark

i was looking at his credits recently and was surprised to find that he wasnt nominated for The Contender as i would've sworn he was - he seemed to get the most positive buzz of anyone in the picture at the time, but Bridges got the supporting nom instead

i don't even mind firth, but i'm sure even he would say that oldman's the better actor.

― tylerw, Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:09 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark

not so sure about this now tbh!

the Ricky Tarr monologue in the movel, original miniseries, and new version are a dramatic dead-end. I don't know why.

― lumber up, limbaugh down (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, January 8, 2012 9:30 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

it killed the second episode of the mini for me, just dead in its tracks. definitely not deserving of a 30 minute flashback

i thought the looks that strong and firth exchange in the xmas party flashback were pretty devastating

Usually I complain about "Mad Men"-style "LOL look how things have changed," but not this time. Alfredsom has an eye for the absurd: the owl on fire swooping out of the fireplace; Santa with the Lenin hat.

So I did actually go to a Q&A with Alfredson when I saw this and he said the owl fireplace thing was something that actually happened to Le Carre.

Also I can't be the only person for whom
http://www.pajiba.com/assets_c/2011/04/toby-jones-AFP_62176s-thumb-300x251-23283.jpeg

=

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2n9G8hS3AbI/TUzDmoPtMFI/AAAAAAAACMQ/-OBCVvsCpps/s400/Pinky+and+the+Brain+Photo.JPG
can I?

Michael Philipps called Toby Jones "the greatst sniveler" in movies.

Toby Jones really annoys me

thought it was funny to find out jared harris was up for toby jones' role first, because ive been getting those two mixed up for a couple years now

I didn't like this much at all (and I loved the book and mini-series). Just plodding and with all the richness of the characters leached out (would have like to have seen this cast stretched out, but as it was most of the performance could at best be described as workman-like here).

found firth's haydon an improvement, if only on physical appearance

Oldman's smiley a bit of a non-event, think placing his character/development at the core of the movie missed the point somewhat.

Toby Jones really annoys me

I know this is unlikely in any case, but you really must avoid Your Highness. Lots of naked Toby Jones.

I rather enjoyed this.

so they were all gay?

Apart from Bill Hayden, who is just decadent.

the Ricky Tarr monologue in the movel, original miniseries, and new version are a dramatic dead-end. I don't know why.

― lumber up, limbaugh down (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, January 8, 2012 9:30 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

it killed the second episode of the mini for me, just dead in its tracks. definitely not deserving of a 30 minute flashback

― maghrib is back (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 9 January 2012 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Certainly the weakest bit in the mini-series but 'dead in its tracks' is a bit strong.

I liked this. It's been 30 years since I saw the miniseries, so the story was more or less fresh to me, but the melancholy vibe seemed in line with what I remember.

Agree w/Moodles above about the abstractness and obliqueness, I liked how often the movie made me fill in the blanks. The editing provided momentum that the performances and unspooling of the plot didn't. And maybe I'm just an Oldman fanboy, but I thought he was really good -- sort of a master class in "strong/silent."

What I really took away from it was the sense of this whole generation fading, which must have been what Le Carré felt when he wrote it. These guys (and women) who had won the War, but now had to slog through something a lot murkier and less satisfying no matter what side you were on.

the point of the soundproofed rooms is not to keep noise out but to keep their voices from traveling out of the room. i am assuming the historical details are all accurate as le carre was an executive producer. i wasn't there at mi6 in 1973 but other spy agencies used similar systems.

i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.

as far as i can tell the point of killing thesinger is to establish that the russians were willing to "scorched earth" on the matter of irina, which giving her mole story credibility

we think prideaux is killed because smiley is the protagonist - we know everything he knows, and learn things at the pace he learns them at. we are in his shoes. that sets up the question of "why didn't anybody tell us prideaux was still alive?", answer being because the witchcraft dudes don't want anybody digging deeper into control's idea there is a mole (hayden because he's a mole, everyone else because they're far up their own ass and don't want to risk discrediting witchcraft) so they secretly repatriated him and sent him off to teach public school

the hate on this movie is inexplicable to me and seems to consist of

1) a lot of WHY OH WHY DID THEY PUT IN ISTANBUL INSTEAD OF LISBON without actually explaining why keeping all of le carre's details would have made a difference

2) comparing a 2000s movie to an 80s (sorta) miniseries to a 70s novel. get a life, snobs.

i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.
i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.
i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.
i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.
i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.
i agree with hungry4ass's interpretation on the killing of irina.

good summation of thesinger killing imo

i dont know why you had to end your post like that, and i dont think anyone on here was really 'hating' either

eveyone I saw it w/ fell asleep and hated it, I enjoyed it

the preview for red tails was way better tho, the sound was all fucked up and it was just random beeps and bloops spilling out of the screen. I was still stoned enough to appreciate what it meant I think

i am sorry, it was unclear

i wasn't referring to this thread when i was talking about "hating"

i meant more crap like this: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/09/tinker-tailor-soldier-travesty.html ... i realize its the mail but it seems like a lot of the negative feedback i've seen around the net shares the tone

srsly though i am very very tired of people comparing film adaptations to miniseries and novels. it really seems like there's not much motive to it other than pointing out that you've done something that other people may or may not have patience for. it strikes me a bit like complaining that the iliad is better in the original greek.

but again, i wasn't actually referring to what's going on on this thread, more what i've seen around the web in general

this film was Greek to me.

LOL

i thought the looks that strong and firth exchange in the xmas party flashback were pretty devastating

the whole xmas party flashback thread was devastating in general

the other amazing "look" in the movie for me was when hayden says "i'm a man who made his mark" and smiley almost starts to reply but then just changes his mind and looks out the window in disgust. pitch-perfect!!

i dunno, after the movie i said to my companion "best new film i've seen since good shepherd" which maybe tells you i'm not really an impartial judge of this sort of stuff

the point of killing thesinger is to establish that the russians were willing to "scorched earth" on the matter of irina, which giving her mole story credibility

Exactly! Which is why that, as well as killing Irina, seems uncharacteristically klutzy on the part of Karla, if the Russians' goal is to avoid giving the mole story credibility. Interrogator says to Prideaux "tell Alleline we shot Irina," meaning what? Don't snoop around this mole situation any more or we'll continue to be violent?

the other amazing "look" in the movie for me was when hayden says "i'm a man who made his mark" and smiley almost starts to reply but then just changes his mind and looks out the window in disgust. pitch-perfect!!

― the late great, Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:11 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

i like how oldman briefly comes alive in that scene when he raises his voice for probably the first time in the movie

yeah, that too!

i think shooting irina was a warning signal for hayden to take care of tarr on his end - its hard to believe polyakov couldn't get the message to him some other way, but maybe their contact was restricted to just the witchcraft house, all of which was taped and reviewed by "housekeeping"

i have to reread the book now and rewatch the series to figure this out

totally enjoyed this

Very little of the witchcraft house is taped - that's how Smiley brings them down, by taping when they're not expecting it.

It's really not clear to me that any 'message' at all is being sent by killing Irina* in front of Prideaux - he's never seen her before, he is going slightly dotty due to the punishment, how is he supposed to connect her to a girl that Tarr (and only Tarr) has met in Istanbul? The stick used to beat him in the book is that all of his networks in Czechoslovakia are being taken in and shot (and think it's his doing) - what I got from that scene in the film was that they were underlining the futility of his denial and/or administering a series of shocks, some of which would cut deeper than others.

* Also a couple of people I saw it with were very certain it wasn't Irina that was shot then, but I'd have to see it again to tell.

Interrogator says to Prideaux "tell Alleline we shot Irina," meaning what?

Hang on, does this actually happen?

what i remember was something like "tell your masters what you saw here"

that's a good point. i forgot that tarr and prideaux were in different cities. somehow i blended budapest and istanbul together in my mind. on the other hand, as i was thinking about it prideaux wouldn't need to connect the two - but as part of his job, he's going to tell the inquisitors everything he saw and heard. prideaux is a pawn!

but yeah, i might be reading too much into it

i get what you're saying about the shocks, i was thinking that too.