no boys allowed in the room!!!!

^^^

It is true, and I wonder how it's telegraphed, and I've seen it in action with certain people, but it's something that's hard to talk about because it can feel, even to yourself, like blaming the victim. But it is a thing.

There must be a facet of "this is what I deserve" in it, a passivity in certain moments.

i think it can sometimes involve a component of the abused person seeking out what's familiar but it needn't. i think estela was specifically referring to random driveby acts of cruelty.

The passivity is why I'm trying to learn to listen faster when someone is starting to border on manipulation in my hearing, because the speaker is judging you in microseconds, weighing their chances, and I don't hear them fast enough.

I've always had problems with this, too. I don't know if it's my bipolar-fed self-absorption or my auditory processing problems, but I often don't realize how much I'm being treated like a fool until later on.

You need to conjure my well calibrated bs detector -- it's what makes me good at my job!

I have so much to add to this convo abt moms and self worth and smoking but I feel like maybe we could start planning a fap so I don't have to type it all out. So much to tell.

god, i know, right?

Problem is, I live 100+ miles away from everybody. *cries*

1. I am standing on the shoulders of giants w/r/t anything I say on the matter of body image, although I am flattered by the props.
2. I am aces at wearing skirts in very cold weather and am happy to share tips and tricks.
3. I missed the big convo last night because I was attending a fundraiser for a trans-inclusive, feminist health center (I'm on the board) and being involved in something like that and seeing all of the amazing, confident people who have struggled with their bodies coming out to celebrate was pretty damn awesome. Also my gyn received a "golden speculum" award.

Your friend,
Jennya

uh, trans-inclusive, feminist health center sounds like my ideal place of employment tbh

I really hope that the award was actually a statue of a gold speculum.

I hope it actually was a gold speculum!

It was! The director made a good joke about the interns having to call the trophy shop and explain what they wanted them to make.

It's a great org. I'll talk about it off board or on 77 all day if you'd like.

I don't know how or when we would fap but it is a lifelong dream.

Looping back to my "therapy is awesome" drumbeat, I got involved with this org by googling "feminist therapy Chicago" which I wasn't even sure existed, and started seeing a counselor there and she was amazing. I mean, imagine feeling overwhelmed by the various demands society places on you to look perfect, and getting ridiculed bc you spend too much time trying to meet these standards, and then there's ANOTHER sexist beer commercial and a guy you've known and liked for years makes a rape joke on Facebook and tells you to quit being so humorless when you object and going to see a therapist and being like "Patriarchy! Rape culture! Insane, unattainable beauty standards!" and your therapist says "YES I KNOW."

She eventually moved out of town and recommended me for the board, which still cracks me up. "I've been a crying, anxious/depresso mess all over your office every other week for four years... Are you sure you want to recommend me for a position of responsibility here?"

catching up on what i missed last night. i <3 u guys.

It's not for nothing that there's a book for women called When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

i just bought this! haven't read yet, but i rly need to learn to be more assertive/self-assured.

xp <3

also catching up and too overwhelmed to say more than I hear ya, sisters, and <3 and hugs to you all!

wishing we could have a ladies FAP -- everyone's so far away, like thousands of miles away from me, except just1ne -- who i still haven't met.

Kind of glad I missed this discussion last night because I was drunk and had eaten a big meal and had been holding my stomach in a bit (mainly because of crappy clingy fit of H&M top, I swear I'm never buying anything from them again) (oh also if you can hold your stomach in then it is air, not fat ~science~) and this whole thing makes me really depressed. Just the whole accepted concept that if you are a woman and you have a body then it's fair game for people to assess you by it. I even get way angry at my husband's friends etc for saying 'she could use a sandwich' about a skinny girl, like to show how right-on they are about realising the size 'real women' are or something but JUST SHUT UP.

I guess everyone likes sandwiches so maybe it's not such a bad thing to say.

you should say, "omg, what if she has a gluten allergy?"

then she could use a sandwich as a WEAPON

xpost - i've been reading this and i totally feel the same way. constantly feeling kind of ugly, avoiding cameras, thinking i should lose weight etc. ugh. how much time have i wasted on this stuff?

I even get way angry at my husband's friends etc for saying 'she could use a sandwich' about a skinny girl, like to show how right-on they are about realising the size 'real women' are or something but JUST SHUT UP.

Ugh, like thin/skinny women aren't real?

Sort of relatedly I have this whole rant about men who touch you when they talk to you or when they want to move past you. I work with a guy who does this, and I think it is related to his being a total mansplainer.

I have that rant about men who want to get past you in public like a bar or something, who touch you ON THE HIP OR WAIST, which is totally NOT a public touching zone, and is a pretty good way for a total stranger to get his drink spilled/be asked to never accidentally touch you again.

I am not above poking people in the back or shoulder with a stiff finger if they haven't moved after the 2nd or 3rd "excuse me", but that bears no resemblance to the proprietary waist-nudge.

On a similar note before I leave work, how often in old movies do you see a man motion for a woman to go somewhere in front of him and then put a hand in the small of her back to move her there?? Does anyone still do this? I haven't noticed but I discourage people who are not my friends or family from touching me so I wouldn't.

Ugh, like thin/skinny women aren't real?

"Real Women" is well, well on its way to becoming the new term for "fat women." I expect that we'll see the plus-size section of clothing stores renamed the "real woman" section sometime in the next few years.

Sort of relatedly I have this whole rant about men who touch you when they talk to you or when they want to move past you.

I've seen more women then men do this, actually.

i get pretty aggravated by that happening in bars. my favorite is when dudes try to give me directions somewhere when i haven't even asked. i was booking it to the neighborhood post office the other day and arrived with a bag full of packages just about 30 seconds after they locked the door, and was standing there all pissed off because now i had to get a bus to the postal station with late hours. dude walks out of the store next door and says "you look lost." i said (quite evenly, not angry at all) "I'm not lost. I live here." he gets all offended and is like "i was just trying to help. you look lost." arrrgh! how many people are lost who are obviously going to the post office, now?!

i just.. i have always had to be pretty self-sufficient and feel like i get this knee-jerk reaction a lot, as if not needing people to do things for me is off-putting/intimidating/problematic

"I was just trying to help you get lost, girlie."

"Real Women" is well, well on its way to becoming the new term for "fat women." I expect that we'll see the plus-size section of clothing stores renamed the "real woman" section sometime in the next few years.

Lane Bryant already refers to its rewards program as "Real Woman Dollars" which is like item #19852 on my list of Shit I Hate about Lane Bryant (in no particular order).

But "eat a sandwich" is straight bullshit bc it's just another example of people policing women's bodies.

I was getting my nails done today (blue glitter :D) and I was thinking about how we're going to take the AC units out of the windows tomorrow and how I have bad timing bc I don't want to chip a nail in the process and then this mocking voice pipes up in my head "Oh no! I can't help you life something! I might chip a nail!" and it was just like, dude.

sometimes when the 'eat a sandwich' brigade sees you eat a sandwich (as you had done all along without their input) and still not gain weight they will then accuse you of bulimia.

<3 blue glitter

Or just call you a fat slob because don't you know how many CALORIES are in SANDWICHES????

Oh I just got a blue nail polish. I got a really dark navy one that's flat and another that isn't glitter but has some crazy pearly action going on. Normally I don't go for that sort of thing but it looks pretty awesome.

I got dark deep navy on my toes, light blue glitter on my fingas. The pearly sounds pretty!

i can never comment on other people's weight, even if i know they have been really trying to lose weight and they have succeeded it makes me cringe, i can't say the words, i find the whole topic too offensive.

i think that's the way to do it, honestly. friends of mine have been hurt that i haven't congratulated them on lost weight, but i can't do it either. i end up saying, "you look great. you always looked great," which can be awkward, but whatever.

i wonder what one could say instead, when you want to tell a friend they look good but don't want to be making a weight comment. "you look happy"? "you look confident"?

can't you just say "you look good"? so many times i've gotten "have you lost weight?" when i absolutely haven't and i suspect i just look awesome and people are trying to tell me that.

Haha yes! People often ask me if I've lost weight, usually saying 'You look good. Have you lost weight?" What, can a fat woman not just look good? Damn.

I have a strict non-engagement with diet talk/negative body talk qua negative body talk (as opposed to talking about why we talk about our bodies negatively iykwim)/weight loss talk. I think it irks some of my coworkers, but they will get over it. Or not. I don't really care that much.

Yeah my mom-in-law does that when it's so obvious I haven't.* I just ask her not to even talk about weight with me. She's this tiny old willowy hippie and she'll pull her belly out of her shirt and hold it in both hands and say, "look at this, I used to be beautiful." Oh god lady just calm down.

*Also the one time I did lose a bunch of weight she told her son I was having sex with strange men to earn money for speed, because she's a drug and alcohol abuse counselor and can tell these things *_*

holy crap, your mother-in-law. i am sorry.

Yeah that is not the way to engage with people.

(The drug and alcohol counselor angle reminds me of my dad's ex-wife who once said to me over dinner when I was about 12 that she could tell I was going to be bulimic because she counseled girls with eating disorders.)

http://thehairpin.com/2011/11/women-struggling-to-drink-water

I mean, what do you say? I can tell you're an idiot because I'm sitting right here and I can hear you?!?

I'm not good at non-confrontational conflict resolution, in fact I keep quiet when I shouldn't because the responses that come to mind are escalation. Escalationary. Escalative. Fucking shit up. Maybe I should go with the escalation for a while and see how it feels, then figure out my next step.