generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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yeah I could go off on a huge tear about computer science's role/function/mission in the academy but I won't

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Monday, 7 November 2011 08:03 (seven years ago) link

http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=

J0rdan S., Monday, 7 November 2011 16:46 (seven years ago) link

That table comes from this:

http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

Finding - if you want to be comfortable study engineering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgzl1Sai4Y0

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 7 November 2011 16:55 (seven years ago) link

I think the CS program at my university now has a software engineering track that is more focused on the methodology and practice of programming. The long, math-and-logic proof classes are still there, but as a core.

mh, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:02 (seven years ago) link

engineering is prob the safest bet for a lot of people individually but 'everyone becomes engineers' is not really a solution for our bigger unemployment problems. it's not like there are a million open engineer positions going unfilled - I know some people who graduated from good engineering programs and are pretty underemployed.

iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:06 (seven years ago) link

what if they create an organic computer, ya'll silicon lightweight type engineers won't be sitting so high huh

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 17:11 (seven years ago) link

Run it on carrots and parsnips!!!!!!

bunnicula, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:12 (seven years ago) link

free range motherboards

new rap guy (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 7 November 2011 17:13 (seven years ago) link

fwiw, a friend works at John Deere and a lot of his engineer colleagues are Indian dudes who went to college in the US

mh, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:15 (seven years ago) link

My girlfriends brother graduated with an engineering degree in may and now has a job where he is being paid me and my girlfriends combined salary. Otoh his job sounds so boring.

Not really any reason for this post other than my own jealousy

max, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:28 (seven years ago) link

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business/2011/11/why-kids-are-all-broke/44664/

generational warfare c/d

will it 'catch on'

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 01:34 (seven years ago) link

I mean beyond the stuff already done by congress on a regular basis

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 01:34 (seven years ago) link

with respect to those present i have been saying since i was 16 that the boomers left us fucked

new rap guy (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 04:43 (seven years ago) link

some suggestions re student debt via mike konczal

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/two-steps-towards-tackling-our-current-student-loan-problems/

max, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 15:48 (seven years ago) link

that's a good article

I like the framing of 'public option' tho irl we're drifting away from that instead if coming closer to having a feasible 'public option'. it's more complicated because education is more of an investment than health care. but it's a personal investment *and* a social investment and right now we're failing at funding the 2nd part.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:23 (seven years ago) link

yeah i liked that framing too. the demise of the public university is a really bad thing for everyone, private schools and their students as much as anyone, in particular w/r/t controlling costs.

heres a longer thing about "public options" that konczal has linked to before

http://slackwire.blogspot.com/2010/09/public-options-general-case.html

max, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:38 (seven years ago) link

yeah there's a never ending price spiral atm w/ public universities capable of justifying any price increase - as long as they remain cheaper than private schools they're 'the bargain' and private schools operating w/ their own weird games - super 'competitive' w/r/t everything but price (even that isn't *always* true, which is why this is a weird market)

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:58 (seven years ago) link

yeah shoulda read that first looks like he's saying that and more

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 17:19 (seven years ago) link

One of the two who is still in engineering plans to work in finance after graduation.

lol

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:03 (seven years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/11/the-tyranny-of-meritocracy/248061/

what is she saying here? my brain is too tired to parse this

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:10 (seven years ago) link

oh who gives a fuck

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:15 (seven years ago) link

i literally read that URL and went "pffffffffffft" at my desk

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:24 (seven years ago) link

key graf

This overlooks a more important question, which is why the system went wrong. Don't tell me it got hostage to the wrong ideology--tell me why all those professors we paid millions of dollars to study economics couldn't provide a convincing rebuttal to that ideology in advance of the crash. Don't tell me that regulators were stupid or bankers got greedy until you first explain to me why tens of thousands of very well educated people, most of them graduates of colleges and professional schools that had aggressively winnowed them based on intelligence, barely outperformed a bunch of upstart micks, third-generation coupon-clipping WASP dimwits, and central bankers who still worshipped the barbarous relic of the gold standard?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:26 (seven years ago) link

yikes

ah, how quaint (Matt P), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:27 (seven years ago) link

I'm not sure I'm really following her point.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:41 (seven years ago) link

i think she's saying "the problem is the meritocracy, cause clearly it fucked us just as badly as the robber barons"?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:53 (seven years ago) link

which is totally fascist and batshit?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:53 (seven years ago) link

Interesting how she slips in "a few mick upstarts" -- McArdle who grew up on the Upper West Side etc.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:54 (seven years ago) link

Don't tell me that regulators were stupid or bankers got greedy until you first explain to me why tens of thousands of very well educated people, most of them graduates of colleges and professional schools that had aggressively winnowed them based on intelligence, barely outperformed a bunch of upstart micks, third-generation coupon-clipping WASP dimwits, and central bankers who still worshipped the barbarous relic of the gold standard?

like it sounds like she's saying "clearly these technocrats are all know-nothings and we should scrap the deal, cause i mean look at all those pre-depression people that did just fine clipping coupons"???

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:57 (seven years ago) link

it's a sloppy argument but I think it's notable that someone like her is in a position that they feel like they *have* to talk about this. she might be ~occupying~ the right-wing corner of a left-wing subject, but watching conservatives approach ows-related issues is interesting cause a lot of the time they're basically forced to agree. there are not very many subjects outside of 'killing obl was a good thing' where that really happens these days.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:58 (seven years ago) link

she's better than david brooks fwiw

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:59 (seven years ago) link

When she says "coupon-clipping" I assume she's referring to bond coupons, not supermarket?

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:01 (seven years ago) link

her argument is something like

1. bad old blue-blood days
2. the ivies start letting more jews and catholics in
3. crash of 2008 happens

??

no i don't get it either

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:14 (seven years ago) link

seems like a reflexive need to not-explain the crash by reaching for some kind of business-page friendly greater narrative. oh, it wasn't an "oligarchic" elite that wrecked the world, but a meritocratic one. hmm, makes you think.

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:15 (seven years ago) link

I remember reading somewhere that there's a narrative that plays bigger in Western Europe of non-blueblood upstarts coming to wreck up the financial system -- class (and sometimes ethnicity) overtones are more present in stories about "rogue traders" and the like who don't come from the right backgrounds/schools.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:18 (seven years ago) link

she seems to be using "change in admission standards at elite colleges of 80 years ago" and "upward mobility" somewhat interchangeably, which is pretty fucking stupid!!! ps i hate megan mccardle she totally sucks.

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:20 (seven years ago) link

Yup, she sucks and is dumb.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:25 (seven years ago) link

srsly

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:25 (seven years ago) link

it's worth noting that whatever her definition of meritocracy is, she certainly includes herself in the category

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:48 (seven years ago) link

and yeah the 'went to harvard' = meritocracy pov has a lot of faults w/ it esp since if you look at harvard (etc.)'s student body today you wouldn't think "wow that is a great institution when it comes to turning significant quantities of poor people into rcih people." otoh how do you define 'meritocracy'. it's a word that makes sense as a vague idea but when you try and sketch out a strict definition you run into a lot of problems. is someone who dropped out of hs but started their own successful business part of the 'meritocracy'? is someone who went to harvard but works as a (insert crappy job) part of the meritocracy?

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:55 (seven years ago) link

does she really include herself in it? I get an old money vibe.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:59 (seven years ago) link

really what you have is 'successful people are successful people' and maybe our system of credentialism is more 'fair' today than it was 80 years ago and maybe social networks are slightly less important when it comes to moving ahead. but I mean george w. bush was president notsolongago - very old school oligarchy was still on top of the american cheerleader pyramid when things went to shit. maybe it was less prevalent than before, but it's hard to pretend like we've turned into some bizarro society where nothing matters but test scores.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:00 (seven years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/10/the-rage-of-the-almost-elite/247638/


Of course, you might think my outlook was jaundiced because I identified with the bankers; I did go to an Ivy League school, and I eventually went to business school and spent a summer with Merrill Lynch. But I didn't know I was going to business school until shortly before I applied; it was what I did when I realized that I was never going to care as much about the inner workings of a computer as most of the guys I worked with.

And if Orwell (and I) are right, then it is I who should have had the most resentment. I did all the same things they did--went to the right schools, got good test scores--and they ended up in banking, while I ended up making a small fraction of what they did. In fact, this happened to me twice: once after college, and again after business school. My first job at the Economist paid approximately a third of what the management consulting job that I'd originally accepted had promised to pay.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:02 (seven years ago) link

waht

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:24 (seven years ago) link

that has to be one of the stupidest things i have read today

so solaris (Lamp), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:41 (seven years ago) link

you guys are reading the Atlantic

The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:43 (seven years ago) link

their new cities section is pretty good

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:48 (seven years ago) link

^^

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:51 (seven years ago) link

also regularly enjoy connor friedersdorfenbergerdorf or whatever

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:52 (seven years ago) link


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