generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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I don't think it's a non-issue cause the top of the market does affect everyone - nevertheless there have been enormous wealth disparities in nyc since forever - during some eras there was enough construction in urban housing and investment in transit that there were no shortage of opportunities for an urban middle class (jews in the bronx etc.)

xp

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:20 (seven years ago) link

And also over history maybe some/more industries would have relocated to those places, so maybe book publishing would be centered in...Detroit or something, instead of being like 95% in NY (outside of university presses) and I'd be able to live somewhere else.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:20 (seven years ago) link

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:23 (seven years ago) link

Lamp don't you live in Toronto? that's still the only place I've ever seen homosexual couples being physically intimate in public; & I lived in the Bay Area (albeit the peninsula) for a couple of years. & this was just walking down Bloor Street, which I gather isn't some countercultural center like the Castro.

this stuff is hard & the fact that I came out here for work & that my father immigrated to the USA from Latin America for work (& moved us around the country looking for work when I was a kid) colors how I look at these things. I don't really "get" being attached to a place & I tend to think most places are pretty interchangeable provided that there's work: after that it's just a luxury of finding a place you like (a luxury I've really yet to have, given my choice of careers, research academia).

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:28 (seven years ago) link

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

― do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, October 21, 2011 1:23 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the erie canal is really the reason that new york city is new york city, but the finance industry has a lot to do with it too. but as iatee points out, the finance industry isnt the reason that rent is really high.

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:34 (seven years ago) link

rich foreigners buying/renting pied-a-terres seems like more of a reason for high rents than wall street bros

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:34 (seven years ago) link

lol swedish haute bourgeois film students

i think the study of why certain cities become lodestones for capital/culture/ppl is really interesting & complex - trade is a big part of it & certainly 'shipping' is probably the most impt industry in nyc's development but its also obv a much bigger argument than just that. i do kinda agree that 'living in nyc' is its own kind of luxury in a way

bongs of a dread redeemer (Lamp), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:52 (seven years ago) link

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

I think this is a very complicated question to answer because you really have to go into counterfactual zone but:

pros of wall street
a. lotsa local tax $
b. enormous service economy dependent on rich people and their absurdist ny status signaling
c. strong real estate market and the 'good things' that come w/ it

cons
a. expansive local govt dependent on a taxbase that might not always exist
b. 'strong real estate market' also = 'rent sucks up most peoples' income
c. office space rent in manhattan = hurts basically every other industry, start-ups, etc.

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:06 (seven years ago) link

I tend to think most places are pretty interchangeable provided that there's work: after that it's just a luxury of finding a place you like

euler i am a little intrigued by this idea and i think i might do a thread on it

Vampyroteuthis Weeks (nakhchivan), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:18 (seven years ago) link

I'm intrigued by it but I have this funny feeling it's going to end up like this: everywhere is p much fine when you're not from anywhere in particular AND you have secure employment there at a reasonable living wage.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:21 (seven years ago) link

ALSO WHEN YOU ARE A ROBOT

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:27 (seven years ago) link

haha I'm prepared to play the bad guy but I think being somewhere w/ a sense of place is prob more important to me than most people?

I have said this in other threads but over the last few decades a lot of small towns or whatever have been drained of the sense of place they did have - if you're moving somewhere and choosing between walmart and subway or walmart and subway, well...(that's isolating city planning and local businesses as the only factor, and they aren't, but that sorta the raw material)

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (seven years ago) link

that's sorta*

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (seven years ago) link

lincoln, NE is actually quite nice

homosexual II, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (seven years ago) link

okay weird looking link but it works

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:40 (seven years ago) link

lincoln, NE is actually quite nice

― homosexual II, Friday, October 21, 2011 4:03 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

otm!

kate78, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:42 (seven years ago) link

guys... we have the internet now

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:01 (seven years ago) link

it doesn't matter where we are... as long as we're jacked in... to the INTERNET

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:02 (seven years ago) link

it doesn't matter where we are... as long as we're jackin... to the INTERNET

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 20:02 (seven years ago) link

my jackin' just went up 200%

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:09 (seven years ago) link

I wld like to read that book about the fragmentation of civil society, bowling alone or something like that. has anybody read it? any good?

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:10 (seven years ago) link

time was your neighbour would lend it to you

nakhchivan, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:11 (seven years ago) link

when I think of people living in their big houses in America I just think of wemmick from great expectations

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:16 (seven years ago) link

I would build a moat around my house if I could

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:16 (seven years ago) link

I've taught using excerpts of Bowling Alone! I like thinking about this issue of "place", because I don't have any place I'm from, & so I'm prone to imagining or fantasizing about it. I think this is a common plight of children of immigrants, anyway.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:36 (seven years ago) link

I am also a child of immigrants and yeah there's something to that. I think that's one reason why I like big cities - it offers people a sense of place without requiring any connection from the person in return

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:38 (seven years ago) link

I'm a child of the countryside and I like cities for exactly the same reason

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 20:40 (seven years ago) link

yeah I can get with that; actually the place I live now, in the great plains, is pretty much a "nowhere" place & I confess that suits me also: I never feel like an outsider here, because there's nothing to be inside.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:40 (seven years ago) link

xp

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:41 (seven years ago) link

I live out in the middle of the sticks and I hate the isolation.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 21 October 2011 21:02 (seven years ago) link

I am also a child of immigrants and yeah there's something to that. I think that's one reason why I like big cities - it offers people a sense of place without requiring any connection from the person in return

that's an interesting idea, I've never heard it phrased like that

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 21:43 (seven years ago) link

I've never felt like more of an outsider than when I've lived in small cities. The history of people is generally impenetrable; nothing worse than sitting at a social gathering listening to nothing but "remember when" conversations. In big cities I can get lost in everything going on around me.

Ryan, Friday, 21 October 2011 22:22 (seven years ago) link

My dream has always been to live in an apartment in a city. Sadly, I'm married to a man who is dead set against it (he actually suggested living in an RV in a city trailer park as an alternative!).

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:10 (seven years ago) link

what's his reason? just a cultural thing?

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:14 (seven years ago) link

every thread I start turns into the suburbs thread

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:15 (seven years ago) link

totally euler's fault tho

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:15 (seven years ago) link

It's because his dream is to live in the middle of nowhere.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:21 (seven years ago) link

But a city trailer park does seem like a compromise, unless you're thinking any place that would have a trailer park does not qualify as a city.

nickn, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:45 (seven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/opinion/sunday/will-dropouts-save-america.html

all college students should just drop out and start multi-billion dollar computer companies - y/n

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 22:17 (seven years ago) link

Well, one thing that colleges can teach is critical thinking, which might have been of some help to the author of that strange piece. I think I expect too much out of the New York Times these days.

Not a shock, the author is one of those bizarro "business gurus". http://www.powerofeyecontact.com/

http://media.linkedin.com/mpr/pub/image-GB_zBD8gFRyhjJpHA4PTB-FqwUGaioiHIOAhB7KqSkkl9Y6c/michael-ellsberg.jpg

Spectrum, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:04 (seven years ago) link

Eurgh

medium rear (silby), Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:08 (seven years ago) link

If the availability of student loans contracts, or if students are less willing to take those loans, I would guess the non-prestige big private unis will be taking an enrollment hit, if they don't differentiate their environments from public schools. This is just a random thought I had on this topic he other day.

Also occurs to me that plenty of places likely won't even do something to lower the nominal tuition price. As long as there's still at least one student who can afford full pay, they will cheerfully extract it from them, even if the average discount rate goes up.

medium rear (silby), Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:14 (seven years ago) link

yeah I think non-prestige private unis are gonna be at the forefront of the crisis, cause they've always been offering a luxury product - the idea that they're offering a luxury product (rather than a 'better investment') is finally reaching the mainstream.

lowering tuition is difficult when you have fixed costs dependent on that tuition, but there are only so many rich people interested in non-prestige private unis in the country.

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:29 (seven years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-dangerous-are-college-rankings-and-the-rat-race-for-prestige/245850/

^ complicating factors for those schools. people will always secretly believe that more expensive things are better and the race for that elusive prestige signal is expensive.

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:35 (seven years ago) link

schools should charge a sliding tuition based on their national rankings

dayo, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:45 (seven years ago) link

"non-prestige private unis" are prob gonna take a big hit---glad I don't work for one---unless they can get kids jobs that pay better than state unis, or if the bad guys kill our public unis.

Euler, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:59 (seven years ago) link

the prob is public unis are gonna have increasing enrollment regardless in the future as they're increasingly considered 'the pragmatic decision' - so they can be defunded again and again before they'll actually start losing students.

iatee, Monday, 24 October 2011 00:02 (seven years ago) link

that's true but there's a lower bound on how defunded they can get (we're playing with that already)

Euler, Monday, 24 October 2011 01:52 (seven years ago) link


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