is there, anywhere, any record as lean and forceful as 'funhouse'?

http://www.rhinohandmade.com/Browse/BrowseOutOfPrintList.lassi?- database=HandmadeMaster5_remote&-layout=WDetail&-response=/browse/ productDetail.lasso&-recordID=48&-token.PartnerToken=&-search

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Seeing how it was just reissued last month with the gatefold, this isn't as hard a task as you'd think. I've always thought the gatefold pic was lame, so I'm glad it's not on my LP or CD versions. It's on the back of my Best of the Funhouse sessions LP, though.

As for if it sounds better on vinyl, yes. Yes it does. The CD sufficates Dave Alexander's bassline, the vinyl gives it its full sound. It's almost dub-like at times. You'll notice it a whole lot more on "Dirt" and especially when it disappears at the end of "TV Eye". The link above will take you to the new reissue, "from the original analogue masters, on 180 gram vinyl".

Then compare it to "Holidays In the Sun".

Hein?

damn bloody right I don't. And the 7CD 'sessions' that was put out is the biggest contrick that has been laid upon mankind though the ppl responsible for the miles davis back catalogue will make sure that this will not be the case for long by releasing everything he farted.

Lets got througfh this again. As a rock rec its merely 'good'. As a rock+free jazz thingy= dud and very annoying.

''is there, anywhere, any record as lean and forceful as 'funhouse'?''

There are a lot of truly great records that really bury Iggy pop and co that's for sure. You must try Borbetomagus' 'Seven Reasons for Tears', AMM's AMMMusic 1966 and finally masayuki takayanagi's 'New Directions' 'Call in Question' (PSFD-41). The first track of the latter is far more intense and visceral than anything the stooges could come up with.

I gotta agree with Jack. It doesn't sound like you've heard this album at all. I mean, I love both bands more than most any other bands, but I cannot see any parallel between anything on Funhouse and anything the Stones ever released.

free jazz has also sometimes that but no one talks about it because it is "REVOLUTIONARY" ie serious boys-stuff stamp-collecting

its just the 'usual' argument. borbeto work in vaccum type stuff (never go outside the house etc).

''iggy keeps being rescued from what he is, which is funny and girly and sexy and frightened and light-touch hiccupping and all this great agile trivial yelp-burp gag- prank pop stuff he does''

whereas he goes outside the house, he plays the 'game', he 'engages' with the world and it does not matter if the world ridicules him etc.

I've heard this sort of argument before (though not in relation to borbetto and iggy) so please spare me.

what it comes down to is that when the guitar and sax combine in funhouse it does not do ANYTHING to this listener whereas when Borbeto go out on a bad day even then they really do SOMETHING to me. I believe borbetomagus have that essence of rock n' roll in them even though they don't sound like 'rock'. The stooges may have sounded good in 1970 (if only i could see them live: sometimes its the only way to 'get' things) but the recs make me yawn in 2002.

"spare me the argument" => julio you brought up the "intense + visceral" = "rock'n'roll" rubbish

iggy did lots of things borb couldn't do if they tried for a million years: viz dance and be funny and silly and pop, the things they are frightened wd dilute their Big Caps Scary Menace oooh

i think you're blaming the stooges for YOUR (and/or byron coley's) misconstrual of the rock+free jazz cliche

I would have liked to see both live. records don't give you the whole picture. I have nevah seen borbeto but i know they played here sometime last year.

''"spare me the argument" => julio you brought up the "intense + visceral" = "rock'n'roll" rubbish''

the stooges work as rock n' roll but what I am talking about is that free jazz dimension to funhouse, which doesn't do much for me.

''iggy did lots of things borb couldn't do if they tried for a million years: viz dance and be funny and silly and pop, the things they are frightened wd dilute their Big Caps Scary Menace oooh''

In the same way Iggy wouldn't try stuff that borbeto does. Borbeto couldn't dance anyway as they play instruments whereas Iggy is a singer. what i am talking about is the sound that both bands make and that the sound that borbeto make is far gets far closer to rock n' roll for me (even though that is not what they try, they are not in the same ballpark I suppose but they make the 'blazing, powerful' recs that matthew talks about in the question) than the stooges.

''i think you're blaming the stooges for YOUR (and/or byron coley's) misconstrual of the rock+free jazz cliche''

I don't buy as this revolutionary type talk. There's great mujsic there but there are other areas where you can say the same. I haven't read byron's notes for seven reasons even. all of this 'new thing', 'fire music' (talking about david keenan here, haven't read much byron coley), all of that is just lazy.

I can sort've see the Stones/Stooges sound similarities - both have some kind of relationship w/ r'n'b, both have 'funky drummers' - but there isn't a single Stones alb that I know of that sounds ANYTHING like 'Funhouse'.

My flatmate owns that 'Funhouse' box: it's really interesting to hear an alb, any alb, being put together. In the case of 'Funhouse', the Stooges wld just play through the songs, again and again and again, getting longer or shorter, tighter or more 'freeform' (30 diff. versions of 'Loose', mmmm...) Also, the rather posh English engineer heard at the start of some of the tracks is v. funny. It's prob. true that they picked the best 'versions' for the finished alb - but virtually every take has something going for it, inc. some v. far out and groovy Ron Asheton soloing that didn't make the final cut. You can also hear what a gd saxophonist Steve McKay was, esp. on the longer takes of 'Funhouse', where he gets up to all sorts of post- Coltrane trickery.

Also, most of the lyrics are terrific.

Regardless of that, Funhouse may be my favorite rock record ever. And I like the gatefold pic, wish I had another for display purposes

not what i said. I said it gets closer to the heart of rock n'roll than 'funhouse'.

''Borbetomagus is great, but Seven Reasons for Tears is definitely not their best, nor most "intense and visceral" album.''

I was picking one that was available. 'New york performances' is really something but that is out of print. I am looking for 'snuff jazz' and 'zurich' but there isn't much hope to get those, i think. and yet the stooges have a 7CD box set of a really good 35 minute album.

NO FAIR!!!

I've got all of those, they're not hard to find. Also, Borbeto Jam and the first LP are worth having.

You realise yr complaining aboot a ltd. to 3000 copies, available only over the Internet, box set that was sold out in six months, right, and not some mass produced item? It's not like there's this fictious huge demand for every scrap of sound that they made that you seem to want to convince people there is.

I rest my case.

Oh, well that's thrown the blinders off. Aside from the fact JJF is mid-tempo, and "Loose" is fast tempo'd and completely falls apart on itself mid-way through, they're the exact same song.

But anyway -- Iggy Pop worshiped the Doors, right? And considered joining the band after Morrison died?

The first one, as far as I know, is a myth. The second one is only partially right.

Ron Asheton: "We just wanted to experiment. We used to listen to Harry Partch, lots of Ravi Shankar. Shankar would be on all day. We also liked to listen to the Mothers of Invention so (you had) a little comedy in there! I also admired Frank Zappa, a really under-rated guitar player.

Any kind of strange music. Any electronic stuff. Also, I loved the Tibetan monks playing those great big horns. The big gongs and tambourines and the horns going RRRRRRRRRRRRR. And Gregorian chants. Iggy had a record of that and he loved it. "OK, let's see, we take Harry Partch, Buddhist music, Gregorian chants and try to throw in a little Stones and a little Beatles and see what happens." And then add our madness and our own inexpertise. When you don't know what to play, you're not restricted by a style. So many people are TAUGHT to play a certain way. When you have that free mind, ignorance IS bliss and you come up with some really interesting stuff.

The guy who was the manager of the Chosen Few was our manager before we got a record deal. He went to the Monterey Pop Festival and he came back with a Jimi Hendrix record. He woke me up when he got back. "I got this album you won't believe." He had these fat joints so we got stoned and he put it on. We wouldn't give him the record back for three days. "Alright, now we got another..." So that was the start and basically, we just plugged away."

That doesn't sound like Doors worship at all. Hmm, you think perhaps Elektra's staff made up the Doors worship to sell a few extra records?

Iggy didn't consider joining the Doors. After the Stooges broke up, he had nothing better to do, and Ray Manzerek had nothing else to do, so someone suggested they try something together, and nothing became of that.

That was some closed case.

I'm not saying in no uncertain terms Iggy was not influenced by the Doors, but, aside from "Ann", you probably wouldn't be able to tell, and the records that Asheton has listed (well, maybe not the Mothers), certainly would seem to be far more influential on the sounds of the first record.

Although, Iggy's whole life seems to revolve around "Louie Louie".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000005IU2/qid=1029531639/sr=2- 2/ref=sr_2_2/102-3032615-8050518