Artists/bands that were once quite popular, yet nowadays are mostly ignored in canonical history books

Tuomas: Great question! I've always wondered about Lloyd; David S. Ware played a composition of his, and ECM still touts him as a heavy hitter, but (and I HATE to admit this) the fact that he's been ignored in histories has maybe kept me back from actually, you know, listening to him.

I think, jazzwise, Yusef Lateef fits here. He got a big push at Atlantic and sold some records, but isn't much discussed historically.

Rock-wise, I've been obsessed with John Otway lately. I was really surprised to hear he'd had a hit in the UK in the late 70s with "Cor Baby, That's Really Free." Hearing that song for the first time last month, I was shocked it hadn't crossed my path earlier. No one knows who he is!

Indeed, he had an even bigger second hit 25 years later with "Bunsen Burner" in which at least one ILxor was directly involved.

In rock I'd say definitely Richie Havens: once upon a time the ubiquitous Voice of Woodstock Nation but no one speaks much of him now.

richie havens used to live near me in the early 90s, he cut quite an impressive figure, still wearing dashikis

add rashaan roland kirk next to chas lloyd on that list

um, "directly" is overstating it: I'm one of the 'crowd' on the b-side, named as such on the sleeve.

Roland Kirk is not exactly ignored, is he? At least I had heard about him before I even started really listening to jazz.

i guess not but I was thinking he's not revered along the lines of Sun Ra, though they were probably equally well known among rok fans in the 70s

What manner of jackass ignores Roland Kirk? I imagine there are a few "crossover" artists - jazz, R&B/soul - who were big in the 60s and 70s but who are ignored now, can't think of one offhand... Lou Rawls maybe? Tryna remember the inner sleeves of 60s records with pictures of Trini Lopez alongside Iron Butterfly alongside Dean Martin alongside Rhinoceros etc etc

Lou Rawls has had a bit of a posthumous comeback thanks to the David Axelrod connection.

Rahsaan definitely NOT forgotten - witness "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" complete with Davey Payne's multi-mouthpiece Kirk tribute at number one! And most honest folk still think Mingus Oh Yeah is Chazz's best (yes, yes, I know, Black Saint, but be truthful; which one are you likely to pull off the shelf more often?).

And The Inflated Tear and Rip Rig & Panic and The Three-Sided Dream Of whatever that berserk but brilliant album was called are absolute classics.

John Handy is another Charles Lloyd in this respect.

Didn't Blood Sweat And Tears sell about 10 million albums around the turn of the 70's, then end up back on the bar circuit 3 or 4 years later? Or are they considered as canonical these days?

David Clayton Thomas plus a few hired hands probably did. The BST horn section were Premier League session guys like Lew Soloff, Dave Bargeron etc. who have never been out of work since.

Thing is, there are a load of artists who were extremely popular but never considered important, even by their contemporaries - anyone who obessively digs in charity shops will know how popular Paul Young, Yazoo, Phil Collins and going back further, Val Doonican and Jim Reeves were, but its doubtful if any critics considered them interesting or important.

What is more interesting is artists who were revered but have sunk into relative obscurity; August Darnell would certainly be one, Dexy's in their various incarnations another; I know both are remembered around here, but they're neither of them featured much in 'rock's rich tapestry' as curated by Mojo/ Uncut etc.

You're slipping, Dingbod:

http://img.tesco.com/pi/entertainment/CD/LF/503122_CD_L_F.jpg

grand funk railroad

(xxpost) You're right about August Darnell and wrong about Dexys

Yazoo were certainly taken very seriously by the music press at the time.

As was Phil Collins up to and including Face Value for that matter.

But how could I forget Garry Bushell's epiphanic five-star rave review of 30 Golden Greats by the George Mitchell Minstrels in the Xmas '77 issue of Sounds?

Graham Parker? Pub Rock in general?

Tom Robinson?

That's why I picked Yusef Lateef instead of Rahsaan Roland Kirk; they both received the same sort of promotion at Atlantic. They were both great. And Lateef appears to be more ignored these days than Kirk.

Tom now resurgent thanks to 6Music and involvement in LMHR.

Graham Parker and Pub Rock in general yes, but Nick Lowe no.

I doubt canonical history is ever much of a guide to what people were actually listening to at the time. I remember looking at a chart from 1967 thinking it would be all psychedelic rock etc and being surprised at how much Dean Martin-esque easy listening was on it. Didn't Engelbert Humperdink outsell the Beatles or something?

If you go a bit beyond the canon, Phil Collins is still played a lot on MOR radio stations.

Thing is, there are a load of artists who were extremely popular but never considered important, even by their contemporaries - anyone who obessively digs in charity shops will know how popular Paul Young, Yazoo, Phil Collins

Yeah, but Paul Young and Phil Collins are still discussed in most histories of 80s pop, even if they weren't considered that important, whereas the book I'm reading is basically the only jazz history where I've read about Charles Lloyd.

I don't know if Lloyd was so much ignored as eclipsed by Keith Jarrett, who went on to greater notoriety with ECM while Lloyd essentially got out of performance for quite awhile.

Went to Russia, didn't he?

http://www.strummernews.com/longpigs3.jpg

Yeah, but Paul Young and Phil Collins are still discussed in most histories of 80s pop, even if they weren't considered that important, whereas the book I'm reading is basically the only jazz history where I've read about Charles Lloyd.

Jazz is not pop. Thus, being popular doesn't necessarily mean anything in jazz while it is kind of impossible of ignore in pop.

Impossible TO ignore, I mean

Went to Russia, didn't he?
Well, that'd do it. The Lloyd/Jarrett dynamic is kind of like the Spencer Davis/Steve Winwood situation, where the supposed sideman turned out to be the star.

Engelbert Humperdinck is a good example of a once-popular artist who is now ignored in the canonical history books, whatever those are. Even among comparable schlagers of the day, it's Tom Jones who continues to resonate. And rightly so -- please god call me home before the Humperdinckian reappraisal takes place.

Um, "Lesbian Seagull"?

(aargh, now posting from beyond the grave)

gay dad
terris

oh wait "popular" ;)

America

James Taylor

Acker Bilk

That's Mister Acker Bilk to you.

The Seekers

Jim Reeves

Anyone hailed as "the new Hendrix" after Hendrix died, viz. Alvin Lee, Robin Trower, Frank Marino.

Ditto, sundry new Dylans

Roy Harper doesn't get spoken of a lot these days - less than Nick Drake or John Martyn, f'rinstance

Three Dog Night

Herman's Hermits for the win.

Humble Pie, Wishbone Ash, Uriah Heep, Greenslade, Curved Air, Focus, Bad Company.

there are no retrospective Pitchfork reviews of the Sex Pistols, as there are for the Clash, Ramones, Buzzcocks, the Jam, etc. Just a 3.8 rating for "Spunk"

a totally unnecessary (and subtle as a room clearing fart) D-minor in the chorus while the entire song is in G-major

Pres. Keyes, I would be v surprised if that added up to more people in the general public knowing "Anarchy in the UK" than "Should I Stay or Should I Go" in 1991.

Yes that’s what I claimed

Idk what you were claiming; thought your point was surprise that the Pistols had fewer listeners than the Clash or Stranglers but I'm just waking up tbf. I prefer them myself tbc.

I’m talking about a general sense of importance. In the lates 80s Rolling Stone put Never Mind the Bullocks at #2 on their list of the best albums of the last 25 years. I doubt anyone rates them as highly these days.

Listening to “68 Guns” for the first time. Initial thoughts:

1. Far more a Clash ripoff than a U2 one.
2. Where’s this “minor chord” in the chorus? Is it “68 GUNS! can never die”? Urgh I don’t know jack shit about music theory.
3. This song is absolutely horrid!!!

The fact the Pistols are behind the Clash isn't surprising at all! The Clash stuck around and became a successful band and had pop hit.

Pistols are so great I think it's a testament to the fact, they still to this day, midtempo rock and all, be comfortably fit into a playlist at a coffee shop, Rotten still sounds to deranged, the guitars are to harsh...

Also saying that as far as year zero British punk bands go the Clash Seems to hold the popularity crown. Not surprised, just that they viewed as equally important as one time, and the Pistols were cooler

Never Mind is so classic, it sound huge compared to the first Clash record, so vicious

I was more surprised about them having lower numbers than the Stranglers. I think I've heard them before, but I'm not sure.

Re: "68 Guns," there are a bunch of minor chords bouncing around, but the most conspicuous ones are the Bm to Dm in the chorus. I did pick up my guitar and strum along just now, and it makes a certain sense, or at least I didn't have a big problem with it. Regardless, "68 Guns" is a total Clash rip but it's earlier in their career, early enough that maybe the U2 hadn't sunk in. But listen to this. I'm putting in the video so that you can see the "hold my beer" response to Bono's mullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt2KymSj9TQ

Never Mind is so classic

It's a '70s rock album.

it sound huge compared to the first Clash record

See above. It took the Clash till their second album to hire Sandy Pearlman, but the Pistols had that big arena rock sound right away. You could swap Paul Stanley in for Rotten no problem.

The Clash debut is higher than NMTB on the p4k 70s list btw

Yeah, they had Elton John's producers on it iirc. xp

I thought the sex pistols were always more talked about then listened to? Anyway, they haven’t been erased from the history books!

If anything, they probably take up more space in any history book than any other act that only released one album.

yeah, as I said, they don't fit into this thread's main focus, but they are a group whose importance/profile/critical status has diminished over time. I haven't seen anything here that argues otherwise.

I would disagree, but not sure what smoking gun would dissuade you, maybe one of Jonesy’s heart attack stents would do.

You could swap Paul Stanley in for Rotten no problem.

Gene Simmons probably less skilled at bass than Sid Vicious

Eric Weisb@rd in the SPIN Alternative Guide was otm about NMTB: a lot of filler ("Liar," "Problems"), sacred singles, Important Album anyway.

lol, crüt

You could swap Paul Stanley in for Rotten no problem.
Gene Simmons probably less skilled at bass than Sid Vicious

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, August 18, 2020 11:03 AM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

steve jones plays most of it in the studio -- oddly, the only one sid is credited on is "bodies", the best song

undoubtedly my favorite song

The Spin Alternative Record Guide is a sacred text and cannot be questioned. I LOVE how Never Mind the Bollocks is #100

Ultimate Guitar etc. has Bm > D in the chorus for 68 guns. I can hear it both ways. I would have to listen to it again to confirm that it's Bm > Dm and... I don't care enough to check.

It is indeed a Dm. If you're too lazy to listen but care enough to post/argue, that basically sums up ILM and should be the new board description.

the vers 2 of it in Ultimate Guitar has Bm and listening it's definitely minor

never heard the song, agreed that the chords is weird in context

Yeah, (Never Mind The Bollocks) had Elton John's producers on it iirc. xp

Bill Price had produced one album by Welsh band Racing Cars, and went on to produce The Cost Of Living EP and record & engineer London Calling and Sandinista (and, eventually, do all the Clash's various remasters with Mick); Chris Thomas had produced for Procul Harum and Badfinger, mixed Dark Side Of The Moon, played keyboards & ghost-produced on The White Album, and programmed Moog for Elton on his second album.

and went on to produce The Cost Of Living EP

While I never entirely understood the complaints against Pearlman's production on Give 'Em Enough Rope, Price gets a far larger, and much more immediate, sound on "I Fought The Law."

Ah, thanks. I had known the details at one time.xp

Chris Thomas had produced for Procul Harum and Badfinger

And the peak Roxy Music albums, For Your Pleasure through Siren!

Wondered how Elton’s name got in there.

Meant to include Roxy Music as one of Thomas' repeat production clients, too.

xp!

Barack Obama has War’s “All Day Music” on his 2020 Summer Playlist. Case closed, I guess.

All this talk about The Alarm, and no mention of The Poppy Fields? Thought it was a pretty good stunt...

In an interview with BBC News Online, Mike Peters said "The Alarm, most famous for their 1983 hit '68 Guns', were not always taken seriously by DJs" because of a combination of the age of the band's members and a perception that their image was outdated. Peters said, "The Alarm as an entity have been going for 20-odd years and history can go against you – we wanted to break the barrier down." He continued by saying that "The Alarm members wanted to stir up the water a little bit, break the mould" and have the song judged on its own merits and musical value, instead of judgement being based on the perception of the band. Peters told The Guardian: "We noticed that a lot of bands suffer when they attempt comebacks because people generally don't believe they can ever be as good as they once were. We wanted to make sure we are judged purely on the strength of the music, and not by our old hairstyles."

With The Alarm's decision to perpetrate the hoax, Mike Peters gained the cooperation of a group of young musicians from Chester called the Wayriders to lip-sync The Alarm's material and pass it off as their own. The first release by the fictitious band was promoted as a cover of The Alarm's 1983 hit, "68 Guns". In fact it was The Alarm all along, and instead of a cover, it was a re-released version. The demo enticed executives in music production to record an album from the band called In The Poppy Fields which saw its advance release of the single, "45 RPM" entering Britain's top 30 chart. Critical reviews of the band echoed the promoters' official introduction of the band as a tribute to bands like Sex Pistols, and The Clash, with even more modern acts like Rancid being compared. The truth of the song's origin was not revealed until after the song entered the charts at number 24, a credit originally earned by The Poppy Fields from unsuspecting patrons who had accepted the act as fresh and new

True story: so I heard "Rain in the Summertime" a few times on the radio around 1987 and was mildly surprised when I got The Joshua Tree and it wasn't on there. Then I found out.

Meant to include Roxy Music as one of Thomas' repeat production clients, too.

And INXS!!

Not until a decade later, though.

Later on, The Alarm dude did this with a pop punk song no better or worse than his glory-ish days output.

In February 2004, Peters' new line-up of Alarm MM++ carried out a hoax on the British music industry by issuing "45 RPM" under the fictitious name The Poppy Fields. Peters, having garnered positive feedback for the song, decided to disassociate it from his veteran band to have it judged on its own merits, and recruited a young Welsh group called the Wayriders to lip-sync the song in the video.[4] The so-called Poppy Fields took "45 RPM" into the UK Top 30 before the hoax was revealed, setting the stage for the album In the Poppy Fields.

How many times did he successfully pull off this "45 RPM" by The Poppy Fields as played by The Wayriders hoax?!

you tell me...

Hearing good things about this new band on Yellow Kid Records tbh

Isn't that trick (a younger more photogenic band miming to a track by oldsters) used in the video for Blues Traveler's "Run-Around"?

also The Killers in the video for Crystal by New Order. actively pretending to be a non-existent band on the release is a different thing though

Isn't that trick (a younger more photogenic band miming to a track by oldsters) used in the video for Blues Traveler's "Run-Around"?

It's used quite often:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbrtS8E0kpY

Paul Revere and the Raiders

― Cunga, Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:19 PM (twelve years ago)

Paul Revere & the Raiders

― dracula et son fils (morrisp), Monday, October 28, 2019 10:54 AM (ten months ago)

this too, if maybe mostly for sheer quantity

Manfred Mann

― dracula et son fils (morrisp), Monday, October 28, 2019 9:32 PM (ten months ago)