The Clash: Classic or Dud

Didn't know about the Manics remix, but that's the safe thing of commisioning a remix isn't it? You don't get your hands dirty.

Where to start? The debut didn't have the best production but it sounds bloody powerful to me. Great songs too. They were never a straight-ahead punk band to me - the different musical roots all showed - Jones' glam guitar and camp singing, Strummer's rockabilly past and Simenon's immersion in Brixton dub-reggae. The inclusion of 'Police and Thieves' (and working with Lee Perry on 'Complete Control') was a brave and interesting move for the times, and totally genuine. I really can't see that they were interested in 'being down with the brother'.

I never really liked 'Give'em enough Rope', but all the hype about 'London Calling' is, for me, justified. Great, great rock and roll. 'Sandinista' is flawed genius - the band doing what they wanted, rather than what they should. Sure there's some crap on there, but THIS IS WHAT I WANT from artists - surprise, risk, the possibility of something new. 'Combat Rock' hasn't aged well, and 'Cut the Crap' isn't the Clash at all.

The Live album is beyond fantastic - if you can't get the power of the songs through the 1977 production, just hear the first album songs on this! As for the live versions of 'Bankrobber', 'City of the Dead' and 'Armagideon Time' - words fail me - genius. It;'s possibly the best Clash album of all! No doubt there will be some who agree and some who don't. It'll be interesting to follow the thread. Me? I'm in love with rock and roll, whoa!

Anyway, The Clash has been my favorite band since I was 15. I won't try to explain why right now, and I'm not sure anything I could think of right now could quite explain their utter greatness. But in the meantime, a fucking C-L-A-S-S-I-C.

The voices sound perfectly fine to me - Strummer was, like Dylan, a limited singer whose voice was perfectly suited to his music - passionate and full of heart. And the way they integrated black music into their sound, especially reggae, feels more organic to me than any similar attempt by a white band - not that people try this sort of thing much lately.

Also, they were lots of fun - this is really important. Forget all the serious crap that everyone including myself always says about them.

Hmmm, I'll be back later :)

but the afghan whig's cover of "lost in the supermarket" is fab.

Anyhow, classic. I don't know why. I just love them. The voice works with the songs, in general. The music rocks. It might also help to note that I think the Sex Pistols blow goats, so maybe it's impossible to like both bands, since about half the people saying they dislike the Clash have mentioned liking the Sex Pistols (or are people I know like them).

And, for the record, I think the Repeat mix is better than the Repeat original, but it's not saying much cos Repeat is one of the Manics' most annoying pre-disappearance songs. It's probably one of the most obvious examples of the pedestrian cut-and-paste sloganeering, innit?

They continually evolved, which is more than I can say for 99% of the shite that people call "classic" these days. You know you're a Clash fan when you wish that SANDINISTA! was 4 records...

And how can you say they haven't aged well?!? Tell me, who in the last 15 years has gone down a similar path to the Clash and outdone them? That's right, nobody. Nobody has even come close.

This is strangely true. My opinions on these two bands have totally reversed. At the time the Clash were, for a period, virtually gods to me (but I was rather indifferent to the Sex Pistols who seemed musically conservative). Now the Sex Pistols seem the more god-like, and the Clash a contrived mix of political posturing and repellent, ugly music

FUCKING CLASSIC

And the Ruts doing white reggae better? "Jah War" versus "The Guns of Brixton" or "One More Time"? Come on, there's no contest.

As for comments about Strummer's voice - who do you fuckin' want singing then? Neil Hannon? Mr. Belle and Sebastian? Kiri Te Kanawa?

Anyhow, yeah, what the hell? How can the existance of Rancid make the Clash's music good or bad? This gets perilously into the territory of a previous thread about holding the bands inspired by someone against the original band - an idea pretty much everyone disowned because it would mean every band ever would be labelled crap because someone out there who is talentless is inspired by them. It's unfair.

And Rancid aren't that bad - they could be, like, the Levellers.

Anyway, both the Clash and Rancid come across as patent bores who can't do anything interesting to save their lives. On that level they're equally culpable. ;-)

Also a double lp was a bit of a bad idea, but a triple!?

Tanya: Well, if you are such a fan of Marillion, then you should be happy that they have aged well and nobody has surpassed them in recent years and made them look bad! ;)

Oh yes, and you can chalk me up as one who thinks both the Pistols (all 1 albums of them) and the Clash are brilliant.

Therefore, the Smiths are the worst band of all time because Gene suck.

Wire = Elastica = Crap. Madonna = Christina Aguilera = Crap. Clash = Rancid = Crap.

"we're middle class - yeah, yeah, yeah ----we come from public school - yeah, yeah, yeah" ;-)

"they told us to release complete control - so we DID!" x0x0

x0x0

I think I'd be fine with that, actually.

See, that sounds cool.

I don't why "This is England" is considered a standout. That cast-o'-thousands chorus is corny as hell. I mean, the album is a dud, but I actually appreciate the cluttered mashups of "Dictator" and "Fingerpoppin'" as a continuation of where Combat Rock was headed.

I liked "Dirty Punk" as well. The album is bad, but not "cast this out of the canon" bad.

Cut The Crap is...as good as any other Clash album, and better than some. Their whole discography is a goddamn mess, and as a strip-it-to-the-bone, no-pop-moves record it more than does the job. The guitar sound is ugly as shit, but in a really interesting way, and when you combine that with the Big Black-ish drum machine, the random stabs of ultra-80s synth, and the gang vocals, Strummer was actually really onto something. People who don't like it are too attached to the mythology of four dudes in a room makin' rock 'n' roll.

IIRC, I think Bernie Rhodes was the one who dubbed in the chorus without Strummer's approval. It's probably better without it, but I'm okay with it - it's an anthem, and it does feel like a stadium full of soccer fans singing it. (Not a bad song for soccer fans to sing in unison, if that ever happens.)

Sound System doesn't include everything, it's missing 2 tracks from the This Is Radio Clash 12" for a start.

i had never really been bothered to check before as my wife was the clash fan in this house.
but it turns out that my cd of the debut is the US tracklisting.
is that the standard edition these days, or, if i see it again will it be more likely to be the UK tracklisting ?

Looks like since 2002 CD reissues have been the UK version

I hadn't listened to the first album in ages until this revive. Hit the spot. It's remarkable how much the band benefits from better production. On the US version, "I Fought the Law" just pops right out for that reason.

Mark - the US version has the band name in the top right (and reddish), the proper version has the band name in the lower right, and more orange.

can't rely on that unfortunately:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Clash-The-Clash/release/16033574

Mark did ask "these days," ie in the 21 years since the remasters, not "if I'm buying loose CDs taken from mysterious European box sets and flogged individually second-hand"

iirc Mark likes to buy CDs from charity shops which means it's not unlikely he'd encounter something like that. there's more than just that one, also found a UK track list with a US cover from 2012

Sound System doesn't include everything, it's missing 2 tracks from the This Is Radio Clash 12" for a start.

Ah, my mistake. Truth be told I never bought it - I know Mick Jones supervised the mastering very closely, but he still had the whole thing crushed with additional compression (a fucking bane on modern digital masterings - I wish people would stop doing that for physical releases). I stuck with the original CD releases, but FWIW, here's what's missing that has been issued on CD elsewhere:

1. Justice Tonight/Kick it Over (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
2. Mustapha Dance (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
3. Robber Dub (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
4. Listen (Full version) (available on "Super Black Market Clash")
5. Radio One (from "Hitsville UK" 7" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
6. Radio Five (From "This Is Radio Clash" 12" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
7. Outcast Broadcast (From "This Is Radio Clash" 12" B-Side, available on Singles Box Set)
8. Janie Jones (Demo) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
9. Career Opportunities (Demo) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
10. One Emotion (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
11. Every Little Bit Hurts (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
12. Red Angel Dragnet (Edited Version) (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
13. Ghetto Defendant (Edited Version) (Available on "Clash On Broadway")
14. English Civil War (Live) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)
15. I Fought The Law (Live) (Available on "Clash On Broadway", version on the Sound System box set is different)

Also the version of "Clash City Rockers" included in the box set is the slower "correct speed" version. As detailed elsewhere, their manager thought it would help to speed up the record when it was originally released, even though Mick and Paul sounded like chipmunks on the backing vocals. The original 7" is sped up and many CD masterings kept it that way, but quite a few CD's even before Sound System have it in the original speed when they went back to the first-generation master tape.

Looks like since 2002 CD reissues have been the UK version

I remember when the Clash's CD catalog was remastered in 1999 (IIRC they took longer to appear in the U.S. and weren't released here until the following year), they advertised (at least in the US) that it was the first time the UK version would be available on CD anywhere. More accurately, if you were in the UK or US, it would be the first time both versions would be in-print on CD there at the same time. However, in the UK, the previous CD was the UK version, and in the US, their previous CD's were always the US version.

I still prefer the UK version. I love the stuff they added to the US version, but it sounds too much like they shoehorned in stuff from later sessions - it's recorded better, they had a different (and better) drummer. It feels less cohesive and more patchwork, so it plays more like a compilation which I guess it really is.

can't rely on that unfortunately

Much more succinct - thanks bovarism. This is what I have, and it's a great sounding CD, supposedly from the original master tape. No additional compression, no trebly-happy EQ, perfect if you want to crank it up.

The US edition of the debut >>>>>>>>>>>>> UK

However, in the UK, the previous CD was the UK version, and in the US, their previous CD's were always the US version.

I don't think this is right, I have the US edition on CD, which I bought in the UK in the late 90s, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't an import, although Discogs just lists it as "Europe".

Mark - the US version has the band name in the top right (and reddish), the proper version has the band name in the lower right, and more orange.

― bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, August 5, 2021 3:00 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

can't rely on that unfortunately:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Clash-The-Clash/release/16033574

actually, that's the cd edition i have.
will keep eye out in the charity shop bins for UK version from hereon though.

When they remastered and reissued them all back in the late '90s or whenever, they definitely re-released both the US and UK versions in the US.

indeed -- I own both.

When they remastered and reissued them all back in the late '90s or whenever, they definitely re-released both the US and UK versions in the US.

Yes, that's what I was referring to, but those came out in 2000 in the U.S. They were issued in 1999 elsewhere, so they may have been imported until they were formally released in the U.S. the following year.

I don't think this is right, I have the US edition on CD, which I bought in the UK in the late 90s, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't an import, although Discogs just lists it as "Europe".

I didn't want to confuse things further because it's really complicated, but to go into greater detail, both the US and UK version had been available on CD in the UK prior to the 1999 remastering campaign. I even remember thinking the UK version had never been issued on CD in the UK. But several years later I found out about the stock UK version that pre-dates the 1999 remaster. It looks like this:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8JE6nroVJG4/YGcmCmtvVzI/AAAAAAAABME/l4ltideIyR8DQWYCMbi9WRvbgKjo4Lh9wCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/IMG_20210402_1505214%257E2.jpg

ta all - I remember the orange-bottom red-top thing being codified with the 1999 remasters (which are good!). iirc they also say "remastered by Bill Price" or "Mick Jones and Bill Price" on the back, if mark's flipping.

(Mick did remaster them that round, but he might not have taken a credit.)

Two more "missing" tracks are "Do It Now" and "Sex Mad Roar" which are on cd in the singles box set, and nowhere else.

I know that's into "Clash II" territory, but as "Cut the Crap" is on cd, thought I'd mention.

Oh, and "Pouring Rain" on the Joe Strummer "The future is unwritten" but

I actually like all the songs on the This Is England single. But I've still never listened to Cut The Crap.

i never cared for english pop punk but dont rob the cash box and lydon calling are ok and didnt they do a rap song and a reggae song?!

This made me laugh:

"Mick Jones has joked that they were the kind of band that would record thirty songs and release thirty-one."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-clash-think-inside-the-box+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

https://trouserpress.com/letsagetabitarockin/

That's incredible.

Cool. Haven't really read it myself yet /pvmic.

that looks amazing, thanks. just skimmed a bit for now.

yeah it's a great read.

Bloody good, that. Seemed a little soft at first, but bears down more and more on particulars of the sound and how it got that way. I remember (in a Trouser Press ad) a 101ers LP or EP[, Elgin Avenue Breakdown w some of the songs mentioned here; an expanded reissue came out after Strummer died, but I never heard either version. Although I think there may have been excerpts in Julian Temple's good Strummer doc, The Future Is Unwritten.

yep it was released in 1981

https://www.discogs.com/The-101ers-Elgin-Avenue-Breakdown/master/193698

Post today (Saturday) by Glen Matlock.

Cool!

Mick's been keeping a very low profile for quite a while now.

?

Except for the Combat Rock reissue, I didn't think Mick had been very active, but apparently he's popped up in a few places in the past few years (recording with the Avalanches in 2020, the Flaming Lips in 2019, etc.) I think he just took a break after producing Kitty, Daisy & Lewis in 2014 - he did a ton of stuff in the first half of the '10s, so he probably needed it.

I just came across a book about The Clash in America that I hadn’t know about but feel like I will have to read right now.

What's the name?

I just learned that Elvis Costello's This Year's Model master tape had Costello and Mick Jones of The Clash playing tandem rhythm guitar on a coda to “Pump It Up,” that got edited out of the album release (but can now be be heard on Costello's Spanish Model version of the album with the guest vocalists ) and that Mick Jones played on the Costello song "Big Tears"

I knew the latter fact but not the former.

Stealing All Transmissions: A Secret History of The Clash, by Randal Doane.

https://artsfuse.org/117329/fuse-book-review-stealing-all-transmissions-how-the-clash-conquered-america/

Thanks---btw did I mention my Voice coverage of The Sandinista! Project, archived here w link to more TSP comments on my Nashville Scene ballot: https://myvil.blogspot.com/2016/06/clash-stash-actually-cuts-crap.html
Also, did yall see this?

The new Joe Strummer boxset, Joe Strummer 002: The Mescaleros Years, will be released on September 16th, 2022, as part of the celebrations honouring Joe’s 70th birthday year. The first-ever comprehensive collection highlighting Joe’s work with his post-Clash band, The Mescaleros, the collection includes remastered editions of all three of the band’s studio albums, plus 15 rare and unreleased tracks spanning the first demos Joe wrote for the Mescaleros, and outtakes of several tracks of Joe’s final recordings with the band...

Cool.

That book starts off talking about this, of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyuGLHnZhOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDDZgEHaczA

toss up whether to put it here or on the kevin ayers thread.

Wow, guess I have to click to see.

Viz. Costello thing: yes! That Spanish This Year Model is super great. You also get to hear how No Action and I Don't Want to Go to Chelsea were recorded basically as one track. I was fearful of that project but it's so good. Now if we could only get the real Rat Patrol (which I know we won't).