Where is the infamous Rolling Stones sample in "Bittersweet Symphony" ?

So it's not a minor part of the song? I was given to understand that it was nearly inaudible.

Nah, otherwise they would've taken it out and saved themselves a whole lot of trouble...and they would have actually made money from the song, and maybe it wouldn't have gotten sold to Nike or whoever for a shoe commercial. Did you guys in the UK have that commercial?

One more reason to loathe the Stones.

http://www.keno.org/lennon_images/BeatlesAK.JPG

Yeah, this definitely isn't a minor sample; it pretty much makes up most of "Bittersweet Symphony," although it seems like the Verve probably souped the sample a little bit. And this song hardly sounds like "the Last Time" at all! WTF!

Eh, I'm sure they stole the idea from someone else. Well-executed idea, though.

Well the thought had ocurred that the idea might have been picked up by someone else on its way, but I have no way of knowing so I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. I doubt I've listened to much of the kind of stuff The Verve were listening to, so plenty of people would know more about this than I do.

what's the idea. to have a string section play the thing and then have ashcroft 'suffering' over the top of it.

yes OK OK ARE YOU HAPPY NOW!!!!

wire>elastica (this one makes me very very mad), gilbert o'sullivan>biz markee, queen/bowie>vanilla ice, roy orbison>2 live crew, 'stones'>verve, willie dixon>led zeppelin even.

happy to see the site's still up and running.

All hail fucking Ashcroft.

"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."

Adding tracks and instruments does not change the fact that the whole song, start to finish, is written very tightly around those four bars. The keys and changes are all in that sample. No sample, no song. He deserved to be sued.

But it should be known that "Bittersweet Symphony" is not driven by some kinda brilliant pop songwriting, but rather by a simple sample. Too many people still give Ashcroft wayyyy too much credit for it.

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

F
E

C
B

consequently when they hear the original they overreact in the other direction

yeah I just did this

t's the CHORDS, for god's sake.

lolz so we're gonna start complaining about stealing chord progressions now? you gotta be kidding

No we're not, that's my point.

ah. I wasn't sure.

It's pretty silly to be against sampling per se, but in general, I trust my own ears, and I trust other people's ears. If the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference. This is not one of those cases. The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample. Stuff like the Vanilla Ice & Puff Daddy tracks are just stupid. They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals.

The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample.

Severely disagree. Most of the song's appeal comes from its almost dance-like adjustment of level, additions of layers, etc.

"They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals."

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Actually, I think the percussion in BSS might be its secretest, strongest weapon.

Yeah, what most people think of when they think of that song is the string riff...which didn't come from the sample. Or the vocal parts: "It's a bittersweet..." and "Don't change/I can change."

The hooks all come from Verve. There's a good argument that they wouldn't have come up with them without the sample in the first place. But that's it.

I'd say the Stones should have gotten a third to half of the music credit. But all the credit—while it may be the "legal" thing—is neither fair no accurate.

I think the lyrics + vocal hook + the string riff are the main appeals here, altho there are a whole lot of nice audio-candy touches to it (the percussion, the squalling guitar feedback bits, etc.)

f the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference.

the key problem here is that what constitutes "a clear difference" is totally a matter of perspective. There are rap songs that are just straight loops of Atomic Dog or More Bounce to the Ounce and some people wouldn't consider a guy talking about how awesome he is over that loop "a clear difference", while the rest of us would beg to differ... context is everything. the fact is the Verve took this little-known recording and recontextualized it in a way that obviously captured a lot of people's imagination. That the song credit reads "written by Jagger/Richards, performed by the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra, with vocals by Richard Ashcroft" (<<<<this is literally what it says in the Urban Hymns liner notes) is just beyond fucking ridiculous.

yes

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it! it's just an absolute case of there being no safe way of making music in this way, there's only lawyers and greed. it's a total outrage, and an incredibly unhealthy decision for music, regardless of what any one person thinks of this song, this decision to me is just as frustrating / depressing as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dimension_Films

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Haha, yes.

I meant the planet Earth btw.

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it!

Working with Allen Klein is like trying to invade Russia during the winter. You might believe that things will be OK at first, this time for sure, but you WILL lose and you WILL be left with nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Klein

Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.

o rly

I'd never heard this before and it's pretty jawdropping.

...but sounds nothing like the Stones tune. The orchestra version anyway...

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

I would guess a lot of people born after 1990 haven't, as they are also too young to be familiar with "I'll Be Missing You".

"o rly"

Well that's what wikipedia sez. If it's not true take it up with them.

i'm pretty sure that less than 50% of human beings on the planet Earth have heard "Every Breath You Take"

I'm pretty sure people too dumb to understand hyperbole don't deserve to have the concept explained to them.

too dumb, lol

Don't worry gabbneb you'll hit 50 soon enough and then you can go back to picking nits off your dick.

Or rather hit 50 again, right.

lol

https://pitchfork.com/news/rolling-stones-finally-give-bitter-sweet-symphony-songwriting-credit-to-the-verves-richard-ashcroft/

That’s very nice of them. It was always total fucking bullshit that Ashcroft had to give them the rights to the song in the first place.

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, January 19, 2004 1:43 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahaha jesus that was fifteen years ago.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure that most people made the connection between 'Bittersweet Symphony' and 'The Last Time' anyway - it's one of those things you really wouldn't have been able to figure out unless you were told what the sample was supposed to be. It's not, like, say, Shed Seven literally ripping off 'Back Street Girl' on 'Out By My Side', which was a really brazen, obvious rip that they didn't get sued over.

It’s cool they did that. Does Ashcroft also receive a share of past royalties, or only future royalties? I looked up the source articles, but that point isn’t clear to me.

I would hope that he would get backdated royalties. It would be pretty shitty if he didn't, given that the song no longer gets the airplay it once did.

The statement sounds like it's going forward, not backdated. It doesn't seem likely that Jagger (MICK Jagger!) and Richards would bother to have their accountants go through every cheque that's come in over the last 22 years, make sure that they have that amount liquid, and send it to Ashcroft.

I agree it is hard to imagine such an accounting from Abkco taking place... though the result is indeed a bit of a “Bittersweet” victory for Ashcroft.

This article also notes that “Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”

I find it difficult to imagine too, but then we're - quite rightly - not privy to the negotiations, so you never know. I very much hope he does.

“Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”

Those are what's controlled by ABKCO.

About time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YrllfAMwHI

this is pretty beautiful, honestly. has nothing to do with the rolling stones song "the last time"

The AOO version is leagues better than the Stones's or the Verve's.

idk, i think bittersweet symphony is a great single

But what of that "Treat Infamy" song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQ0qNtLq8E

It would be like if Dylan demanded royalties for Beck’s “Jackass”, no?

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

David Whitaker really should have been compensated for the sample

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

why would this change? (does it not say lyrics by Ashcroft, as per the album?)

It does not.

I assume Spotify gets those credits directly from the licensor (would have to light the Glenn-signal to confirm).

yeah, if the official credit does now go to the band or to Ashcroft, one wouldn't expect that to change in sleevenotes unless there was a new "release" with new metadata - an anniversary remaster, an appearance on Best Britpop Anthems Of All Time... Ever!! etc.

Even then, if the track is there already, it won't erase or update the previous