― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 18 March 2004 14:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Strachey, Thursday, 18 March 2004 14:29 (twenty years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 March 2004 16:17 (twenty years ago) link
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― Antmusic78 (Antmusic78), Thursday, 18 March 2004 16:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:37 (twenty years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago) link
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― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:47 (twenty years ago) link
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:51 (twenty years ago) link
I think more and more that About Schmidt is one of the best Hollywood movies of the past decade or so.
― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 18 March 2004 19:43 (twenty years ago) link
― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 18 March 2004 22:57 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 18 March 2004 23:17 (twenty years ago) link
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 18 March 2004 23:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 18 March 2004 23:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Nick H (Nick H), Friday, 19 March 2004 00:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Nick H (Nick H), Friday, 19 March 2004 00:48 (twenty years ago) link
― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 19 March 2004 09:08 (twenty years ago) link
― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 19 March 2004 14:15 (twenty years ago) link
Purported original ending to Election (I can't watch this right now, but it appears to be closer to the novel's):
http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2011/05/thats_an_apolog.php
― resistance does not require a firearm (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 May 2011 14:31 (twelve years ago) link
That's pretty awful, though it does underscore Tracy's vulnerability a bit more. How does the book end?
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 16 May 2011 15:44 (twelve years ago) link
wow way more feel-good-y. actual ending is definitely funnier, if harsher.
― american thinker (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 16 May 2011 16:28 (twelve years ago) link
see above, ie the novel's ending is at least superficially closer to this unused one
― resistance does not require a firearm (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 May 2011 16:39 (twelve years ago) link
ive never been that big of a laura dern fan but damn does she own in citizen ruth -- "i slept in some dumpsters, maybe i slept on some babies"
― johnny crunch, Sunday, 7 August 2011 17:35 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that movie kills imo but i think this little yupster is p dope even 'sideways' isnt that bad honestly
― Lamp, Sunday, 7 August 2011 17:42 (twelve years ago) link
otm i like abt schmidt a lot more than most ppl do
― johnny crunch, Sunday, 7 August 2011 17:46 (twelve years ago) link
so yeah he has that new george clooney movie coming out later this year
― by another name (amateurist), Sunday, 7 August 2011 17:56 (twelve years ago) link
so yeah the trailer is like NPR Sense of Humor: The Movie
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 17:57 (twelve years ago) link
i know! i hope it's good anyway.
― by another name (amateurist), Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:03 (twelve years ago) link
I saw that trailer the other day too and was disappointed to see Payne's name at the end. I like Election and Sideways a lot (About Schmidt, no).
― clemenza, Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:06 (twelve years ago) link
I'm holding out hope, but I think at some point he's gonna need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre. I mean, he's the honkiest guy this side of Tim Burton.
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:38 (twelve years ago) link
what do you mean by "need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre"?
― by another name (amateurist), Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:58 (twelve years ago) link
Ingmar Bergman had that problem too.
― clemenza, Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:59 (twelve years ago) link
http://www2.alibris-static.com/cover/v44182t6433.jpg
― Scharlach Sometimes (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:10 (twelve years ago) link
the pilot for Hung is kind of my 2nd favorite Payne flick after Election
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:26 (twelve years ago) link
what do you mean by "need to address the super-whiteness of his oeuvre"
just that his films are really, really white-bread. i mean i get that he is chronicling some caucasian midwestern-ish shit, but his only prominent characters of color (that I can remember) are (1) an exotic asian love interest (2 ) a starving african boy. i'm not calling him out for racist or anything, just noting that there are, like, certain... omissions... in his work. like i said, he's no tim burton, but as adds more films to his résumé with almost exclusively white casts...
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:52 (twelve years ago) link
^^ but, most of his films are set in Omaha! Has diversity arrived there yet?
― Mucho! Macho! Honcho!: Turn Off The Dark (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:57 (twelve years ago) link
there is literally no way i can think of him addressing "the super-whiteness of his oeuvre" in a future film that would actually earn praise from remy so why bother
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:02 (twelve years ago) link
good one!
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:05 (twelve years ago) link
eh "write what you know," etc. It's one thing for me to implore Woody Allen to hang out with different kind of friends; it's another to recommend he cast Martin Lawrence.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
ok fine I would recommend it
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:09 (twelve years ago) link
i think its kinda unfair to write sandra oh off as "exotic love interest"? but i dont disagree that it might be nice to see some ppl of color in these movies. also its one thing to have a white-ppl-only movie set in the midwest but if this movie about hawaii is as white as the trailers make it seem that wd be...... weird
― max, Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:10 (twelve years ago) link
ugh fuck sideways. i really love election + citizen ruth is a crazy film. i always think of this dude in terms of a "what happened?" narrative. maybe i should see about schmidt.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
sandra oh was not an "exotic" love interest -- she was just a good-time gal as they say.
― by another name (amateurist), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:14 (twelve years ago) link
never watched the director's cut w/ "me love you long time" monologue eh
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
I guess my issue isn't with what he's doing/done in terms of career being abt. white people woes, it's that he's selected four books to adapt (Citizen Ruth is original, right?) and the six or seven lead parts in each of them – save his ex-wife's – are all pretty similar. Google tells me that Payne went to UCLA and lived in Spain, so I think it's a little disingenuous to claim he's just doing 'what he knows' b/c at some point in his European and Angeleno life he has to interact w/ a lot of different people.
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
Also I've enjoyed all five(?) of his films, to varying degrees.
― smells like PENGUINS (remy bean), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
Maybe his own knowledge of Spain is superficial...?
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
i dont care if his movies only have economically comfortable white people in them, i like lots of stories about economically comfortable white ppl
― Lamp, Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
some of my best friends are economically comfortable white people
ah who am i kidding, all of them are
― sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
I liked ]Nyad, it is a very watchable film and Annette Bening's and Jodie Foster's performances are both just about perfect
― Dan S, Wednesday, 24 January 2024 01:44 (two months ago) link
Since Payne hasn't directed anything in several years and has dropped out of quite a few projects, I think it's good if he gets a solid hit out of a "safe" one, just to get his career moving and (hopefully) pull together the clout needed to make something that's been stuck in limbo. Before this, he hadn't had a hit, critical or commercial, in a full decade.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 24 January 2024 19:31 (two months ago) link
It's weird being in the target demographic for The Holdovers - total cinema comfort food, very-good-but-not-great and as mentioned earlier - sometimes an imaginary Hal Ashby movie is better than the real thing.
― Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 18 February 2024 08:14 (two months ago) link
i know that it aims exactly for this, but it doesnt do anything that a prestige young ryan o neal vehicle wouldnt in terms of the higher brow effort, and it falls some way short of giving us anything too piercing in terms of interactions between the younger cast caricatures
i thought it was pleasant but theres a reason this guy directs half-interesting swipes at rich america that i only bother to catch when stuck for something to watch
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Sunday, 18 February 2024 13:52 (two months ago) link
watched half of the Holdovers on the plane, do not feel moved to watch the rest. I have *hever* that I can remember not liked a Payne movie, and what I like about them is that there's a kind of sharpness to them, they don't go down easy -- this one, well, "cinema comfort food" is a good description. The group of holdover kids were a curated bunch of types like the Bad News Bears, except, again, without the sharpness of the (original) Bad News Bears.
Now that I think of it, what I really wish is that Payne, rather than Richard Linklater, had made the Bad News Bears reboot. That might have been good. Is Giamatti actor enough to play Buttermaker?
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 19 February 2024 14:44 (two months ago) link
I think Giamatti gives a more heartfelt and memorable performance than Houseman did in The Paper Chase to be honest― Dan S, Saturday, January 20, 2024 6:27 PM (four weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Dan S, Saturday, January 20, 2024 6:27 PM (four weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink
The best-ever 70s-style performance of dead-inside old man academic is Donald Sutherland in Animal House. Anybody can play "doesn't fuck, sad and alone, can't exist in the world of grownups" what's hard is playing "fucks but is still sad and alone and can't exist in the world of grownups"
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 19 February 2024 14:47 (two months ago) link
The group of holdover kids were a curated bunch of types like the Bad News Bears, except, again, without the sharpness of the (original) Bad News Bears.
not trying to convince you to watch the rest of the movie if you weren't into the beginning, but the "group of holdover kids" becomes irrelevant to the plot fairly early on (though i guess after you stopped watching)
― na (NA), Monday, 19 February 2024 15:20 (two months ago) link
Just saw the trailer for The Bad News Bears because i've never seen it. I guess it, er.. doesn't get shown on tv much these days.
― piscesx, Monday, 19 February 2024 16:39 (two months ago) link
There are reasons, but the heart of the movie is very warm and true, I recommend watching it (original of course)
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 19 February 2024 16:50 (two months ago) link
bad news bears rules *canonically* ie it is fact, also it belongs to a time that no longer exists & that is part of why it is so great.
― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:00 (two months ago) link
See also: Breaking Away
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 19 February 2024 17:12 (two months ago) link
otm! THE BEST
― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:14 (two months ago) link
Glad Da'Vine Joy Randolph won Best Supporting Actress at the BAFTAs this weekend. Deserves the Oscar as well.
― paisley got boring (Eazy), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:19 (two months ago) link
I think it's great she's getting these well deserved kudos but I still get a real sense that Payne simply didn't know what to do with the character at a certain point and essentially dumped her off at her sis's for a good chunk of the movie's latter half. Part of me was all "Kinda wish I could hang around here more!" (Unintentional but instructive comparison would be how American Fiction dwells on layers of grief in a Black American family; obviously the focus and intent of the two films differs but, you know...)
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 19 February 2024 17:22 (two months ago) link
I saw both within days of each other and loved having the Boston-and-environs pairing.
― paisley got boring (Eazy), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:29 (two months ago) link
Thought this was okay, but it just reminded me about how great Election is (never have seen Citizen Ruth, need to correct that).
― B. Amato (Boring, Maryland), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:32 (two months ago) link
Payne simply didn't know what to do with the character at a certain pointIs there any reporting that he excised a fully-integrated co-lead from half the film because he personally disagreed or didn’t identify with her conception or presentation? Given Payne’s past efforts to sideline screenwriters, one presumes that he would have taken a writing credit if he made such a significant change.
― bae (sic), Monday, 19 February 2024 17:40 (two months ago) link
Citizen Ruth v good.
Thought this was okay, but it just reminded me about how great Election is
I think that's easily his best film and so far the only one he's made that I'd call a great film. There's something to like about all of his films, and he definitely had the benefit of marquee stars later on, but at this point, I want to say he's an excellent writer and a fine director who's never really lived up to the potential suggested I would have guessed from Election.
It's too bad Downsized was so difficult to make and may have seriously hindered his chances at making more ambitious films in the future. The critical reception was polarizing for good reason - on the one hand, the scale of its ambition, from the more inventive (sci-fi) bits of the film to the scope of its ideas, were all commendable. It's the type of thing I'd like to see from a filmmaker in terms of stepping out and expanding their comfort zone. But unfortunately the conception or the execution was fatally flawed, particularly the socioeconomic ideas that come across as vaguely researched rather than edifying or even understood. (Too many moments seem to lean on misguided stereotypes.)
Anyway, in his defense, I'll also add that he's really great at setting up all of his films when it comes time to make them - everything from the casting to the locations in The Holdovers is impeccable, and as expected he was heavily involved in that. (Casting in particular took a long time - the lead child actor never acted on camera before and even after he was cast, Payne knew he'd need some instruction in that regard.)
― birdistheword, Monday, 19 February 2024 17:56 (two months ago) link
*potential I would have guessed from Election
― birdistheword, Monday, 19 February 2024 17:57 (two months ago) link
i haven't seen any of his movies between sideways and the holdovers, but it seems like after election he moved from making movies about anger to movies about sadness. which is fine, but anger has a lot more energy/drive than sadness. there's just so much simmering tension and resentment throughout election that gives it a spark.
― na (NA), Monday, 19 February 2024 18:12 (two months ago) link
i think sideways his best
@eephus- rather strangely after reading your post, but while writing mine above i actually did wonder whether i wouldnt much rather have seen linklaters holdovers
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 19 February 2024 18:16 (two months ago) link
It was called EVERYBODY WANTS SOME!
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 19 February 2024 19:46 (two months ago) link
OK not really but then again sort of
lol - that is a great, underappeciated film though.
― birdistheword, Monday, 19 February 2024 20:08 (two months ago) link
I caught this in a small but surprisingly full theater over the weekend. Had to sit almost directly under the screen but it was fine. I thought it was thoroughly enjoyable and the people I was with, who ranged in age from 12 to 80, all enjoyed it as well. Maybe even better than Nebraska.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 16:42 (two months ago) link
Seen The Holdovers and liked it quite a lot more than I expected, very good; seen Sideways today and it's fucking great, back when it came out I seen a bunch of boring old middle class people saying it was a boring old middle class white guy movie, so I avoided it, but it's a lot of fun. Shit on newsnight review, I can't believe I trusted you.
Never heard of Alexander Payne until this year but it turns out I've seen most of his films! I might seek out the other ones.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 00:27 (one month ago) link
the bowling scene in the holdovers was filmed in my hometown! shoutout to the wakefield bowladrome.
nice movie, i enjoyed it a lot on the lead performances alone.
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 10 March 2024 02:23 (one month ago) link
agreed, all 3 of the main performer's work felt effortless.
― Western® with Bacon Flavor, Sunday, 10 March 2024 03:10 (one month ago) link
This seems pretty damninghttps://variety.com/2024/film/news/the-holdovers-accused-plagiarism-luca-writer-1235935605/
― Piedie Gimbel, Sunday, 10 March 2024 08:52 (one month ago) link
Frisco script is here.
Read the first 40 pages and not seeing much, other than cynical, wise-cracking central character thrown together with 15 year old.
― bulb after bulb, Sunday, 10 March 2024 14:26 (one month ago) link
Some of the “line by line transpositions” in that document are a real stretch
― cozen itt (wins), Sunday, 10 March 2024 15:17 (one month ago) link
Note that: 1. The scene begins with Paul/Wills in a library/quiet carriage 2. Paul/Wills is doing something relaxing, andhas a mug/cup. 3. The third action line sentence consists of Paul/Willis performing two body-based actions. 4. Paul/Wills' fist line is an exclamation that features a religious-based curse. 5. The surprise means he will be stuck alone with Angus/Amy. 6. The physical mechanism by which this occurs is a mode of transport train/helicopter).
― cozen itt (wins), Sunday, 10 March 2024 15:24 (one month ago) link
yeah my kid read all of this to me out loud yesterday and it sounds bad until you actually read the details. 'line by line' is an utterly false statement.
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Sunday, 10 March 2024 15:46 (one month ago) link
I might seek out the other ones.
I still say it's all downhill after Election but yes, there's a lot worth seeing.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, 10 March 2024 16:38 (one month ago) link
This seems pretty damning
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/the-holdovers-accused-plagiarism-luca-writer-1235935605/
― Piedie Gimbel, Sunday, 10 March 2024 4:52 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
i’m guessing you didn’t read it
― flopson, Sunday, 10 March 2024 18:20 (one month ago) link
I liked Sideways better than Election. I remember disliking parts of About Schmidt but at the time I was pretty sick of that whole indie film/comics aesthetic of glum guys staring at the screen. Kathy Bates had a decent part in it.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, 10 March 2024 20:15 (one month ago) link
didnt realise he was about schmidt
maybe the most vapid message ive ever seen in a movie
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Sunday, 10 March 2024 21:14 (one month ago) link
Sense of place, sense of character, sense of humor, sense of tragedy of failed lives: he knows what he's doing, if these things matter to a viewer. Knows it on the level of Chekhov in Sideways, The Descendants, and The Holdovers.
― paisley got boring (Eazy), Sunday, 10 March 2024 21:22 (one month ago) link
Note how the two scenes unfold on a near line-by-line basis: 1. Paul/Wills is working in his room/on the ward. 2. A messenger interrupts him to tell him his boss wants him. 3. Paul/Wills self-importantly tells the messenger to tell his boss he is busy. 4. The messenger tells Paul/Willis he actually must go now. 5. Paul/Wills reluctantly acquiesce
These are all like unbelievably stock scenes that you can find “line by line transpositions” of in films from the 1920s. I almost feel worse for this guy than I would if his movie really had been plagiarized, the deeper you go into detailed examples the more sad/pathetic it seems. Payne-esque, even!
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Monday, 11 March 2024 16:37 (one month ago) link
Yeah at first I was willing to give it credence because he's not just a random loon but an actual produced screenwriter, but the more you see it it's ridiculous.
― from a prominent family of bassoon players (Boring, Maryland), Monday, 11 March 2024 16:44 (one month ago) link
Paul/Wills is called to adventure.Paul/Wills refuses the call.Paul/Wills embarks on a road of trials.
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 March 2024 21:12 (one month ago) link
The but where he’s like “clearly they used software to do this” 🫣Also is the character called fucking Wills or Willis, in the holdovers the guy has the same name all the way thru
― cozen itt (wins), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:17 (one month ago) link
The Plagiarism Today blog has a thoughtful backgrounder on this:https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2024/03/11/why-the-holdovers-is-not-a-plagiarism/
― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 13 March 2024 10:25 (one month ago) link
Though it contains a qualifier of note:
My Analysis Note: I have not seen The Holdovers nor have I read Frisco. This analysis is based solely on the allegations provided by Stephenson and the follow ups shared by other screenwriters.
― Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Wednesday, 13 March 2024 10:40 (one month ago) link
Saw "The Holdovers." I thought it was really well directed and acted, but the story and writing ultimately didn't transcend its more familiar/predictable beats.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 17 March 2024 03:59 (one month ago) link
Yeah my take too. Also nice to see snow, albeit in a movie.
― from a prominent family of bassoon players (Boring, Maryland), Sunday, 17 March 2024 14:10 (one month ago) link
I keep thinking of him saying "your toes would curl!"
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, 17 March 2024 18:51 (one month ago) link