ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

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the next part of the sentence is "have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries" ... dangling hyphens ahoy

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:05 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost: Their extremely interesting for some've us, Mr. Totalwizard.

Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link

how come all the grammar threads have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries?

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link

how come all the grammar threads?

September is just around the corner; grammar is in the air!

Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link

have tried tobacco in lower- and middle-income countries

So the rich ones took buses into poorer neighborhoods just so they could try tobacco?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:19 (seventeen years ago) link

(Also is that really "countries," and not "counties?")

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link

nabs i swapped that around for exactly that reason!! sentence now runs "23% of 13- to 15-year-olds in low- and middle-income countries have tried tobacco"

and yes it is countries.. the phrase appears so often that i wonder if it would be ok to say "(LMICs)" after the first ref and then just use that

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I shook my head this week at "blood-urea-nitrogen levels." No wonder I can't remember any of these 'rules.'

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 25 August 2006 18:28 (seventeen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
"big-upped" or "bigged up"?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:49 (seventeen years ago) link

What?? Bigged up. Totally. Mothers-in-law, etc.

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:51 (seventeen years ago) link

The latter makes more sense grammatically, and Google prefers it by about 10 times as many hits. But the former sounds more colloquial to me, and since the expression is basically slang, it seems like that should be taken into consideration.

But what do I know: apparently, the second Google hit for "big upped" is something I wrote on ILM two years ago!

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Ha -- I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're distinct usages:

Big-upped = "Big up to my man Ray-Ray"
Bigged-up = "I just want to big up my girl Trina back home"

... in which "big up," the earlier usage, is a noun (something given to someone, like a shout-out), whereas the later usage is a transitive verb.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, that's right, I went there.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I am in awe of you. For Realz.

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:05 (seventeen years ago) link

But I would match the modern gerund (which is "bigging up," not "big-upping") and go with "bigged up," which is mostly how people do it now. ("Big-upped" could be marked archaic/90s and reserved for such uses.)

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh no you di'int. (XP)

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:07 (seventeen years ago) link

http://daphne.palomar.edu/hgerhardt/images/Golf%20We%20are%20not%20worthy.JPG

l-r: ILE, ILM, nabisco

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:08 (seventeen years ago) link

(xxp) Huh, well, I buy that "big up" can function as a noun or a verb, but if you're putting it in the past tense, then it seems like it's only referring to the usage as verb. How does "big-upped" correspond to a noun usage?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:08 (seventeen years ago) link

"Big up to my man Ray-Ray"

I'd also propose that you hear "big ups" (plural) just as often as the singular, when it's used in this way.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Hm. For a slightly different approach to the same distinction, to have "big-upped" someone requires that you actually used the words "big up [to]" in the original situation, whereas "bigged up" could be any kind of inflated praise or strong recommendation.

Oh bother, you've basically all said it already.

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:11 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay I'm actually mostly joking here, but I think there's been a shift in the words. At first people would say, you know, "big up to so and so," in which "big up" sounded interchangeable with "much respect" or similar. But then as soon as people started talking about this habit, it had to become a verb, and so the "big" part became the verb, maybe -- in part because it makes intuitive sense as an equivalent to talking a person up.

xpost -- I meant "big-upped" refered to a noun in the way that e.g. "toilet-papered" can be a verb that's been made out of a noun. Also, yes, spot on with "big ups!" Which are kinda offered TO people, right?

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Wait, no, that actually makes sense, Laurel.

So: "I big-upped Nabisco" = "I said, 'Big up to Nabisco.'"
Whereas: "I bigged-up Nabisco" = "I was talking about how great Nabisco is."

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:13 (seventeen years ago) link

No hyphen in the second one!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:17 (seventeen years ago) link

So, Nabisco, would these usages transpose to the British variant, shout-out?

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:19 (seventeen years ago) link

No hyphen in the second one!

You're hardly one to talk, but you're right in this case.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:20 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think "shout-out" is uniquely British...?

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:21 (seventeen years ago) link

No. Neither does Webster's, which usually has a little chiefly Brit. caveat:

shout-out n (1990) : a brief expression of greeting or praise given esp. on a broadcast or audio recording

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Of course he's right, I didn't use a hyphen for a reason. ; )

Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't use a hyphen in my initial post, either! The second time was a typo, I swear!

I think my problem with "bigged up" is that it's difficult to accept "big" as a verb with multiple tenses ("bigs," "bigged," etc.). "Up," on the other hand, already functions in this way in expressions like "upped the ante."

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:27 (seventeen years ago) link

"Embiggens"

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:35 (seventeen years ago) link

This discussion has been very embiggening.

Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 23:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Moving on...

How do you shot something like, "Joey Jojo Junior Shabadoo, the Székesfehérvár, Hungary, based lovemachine, etc."? Do I need to shots a hyphen before "based" even though I have to specify what country Székesfehérvár resides in? Don't tell me I have to nix the comma after Hungary!

c('°c) (Leee), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link

the asnwer to 90% of such things is rewrite. Joey shabadoo, the lovemachine from Sz?keshfeh?rv?r, Hungary,

stet (stet), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

or based in, natch

stet (stet), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks stet. I knew to rewrite intuitively, but I saw another magazine (Spin, I think) recently do something like "the Manchester, England-based musician" and bugged out a little.

Next up: how do I kill the co-managing editor who's been ruining my reviews because he used to be the copyeditor and thinks he has a coherent grasp of grammar/style? Without, of course, arousing suspicion.

c('°c) (Leee), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Does he have a peanut allergy?

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

The answer to 90% of such things is resign. Editors who think they can do X are a total pain in the tit. Staying in your office, keeping management off our backs and letting the staff alone is the job, so do it.

stet (stet), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Are you thinking of anyone in particular when you write such things?

M�dchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

[orly.jpg]

x-post

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 20:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha can your printer stack marks? Then you'd have options like "The Jackson 5, a Gary, Indiana|-,|based band..."

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 20:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Alternately, per our bigging up discussion: "The Jackson 5, a Gary-based Indiana band," or even "The Jackson 5, a Gary-based, Indiana, band" -- !

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 20:41 (seventeen years ago) link

That last one is an abomination, nab.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 21:50 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd like to think they're all abominations!

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 21:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Although I suppose "A Gary-based Indiana band" is technically sound, along the model of "a water-based personal lubricant."

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 21:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I class most of these as irritations. However, your creativity outdid itself with: "The Jackson 5, a Gary-based, Indiana, band", and reached a lower standard.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 22:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Were they actually based in Gary, or did they just originate there?

M�dchen (Madchen), Thursday, 14 September 2006 14:40 (seventeen years ago) link

That's your question on that one? Umm ... they originated in Gary and left quickly, but obviously at some early point you might have described them as Gary-based. My example is from 1965, maybe.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 14 September 2006 16:01 (seventeen years ago) link

i have a couple of quick questions that can only be answered with a chicago manual of style but i don't have one right here with me, ugh, and people do not seem to be home/answering phones. if anyone can confirm, i would totally appreciate it :) pity me and my only having APA and MLA guides on hand (internet seems to be of no help for my questions.)

quotation marks: 1) double quotation marks all the time, right, except if one is quoting something and there are quote marks within that quote (these become single quotation marks), 2) include all punctuation inside the quotation marks or only non-period/comma punctuation? and if there is a source in parentheses, put period after that, correct? "Blah blah blah 'blah' blah!" (Thingy 1992).
and also (from the paper i'm actually editing): - These superheroes, with names like “Black Lightning” and “Black Panther”, indicate the status - that comma there, should in go inside the quotation marks or is it correct as is, according to Chicago style.

rrrobyn, the situation (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 00:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Comma should go inside quotation:

with names like "Black Lightning" and "Black Panther," indicate the status

I'm not sure about the source in parentheses, since I don't really know Chicago Manual of Style at all -- every course I've ever taken has used MLA. I'm assuming that the exclamation is what's throwing you off, though, right? Because "ordinarily you'd just do this" (Dude, 2005).

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 01:40 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, that's what i figured, but he's got commas outside throughout and , now that i've talked to him, he seems to think this is correct. so, blah, i'm going to stick with the consistency argument on that one. and, yep, he's got a chicago guide, but damn if those things ever answer all our questions.

i have to say, i dig APA but i'm going MLA for my own stuff, unless i go do something in psych or maybe soc, of course...

thanks :)

rrrobyn, the situation (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link


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