yeah smiley's people is sort of the cutoff point for me too, though a perfect spy and tailor of panama have redeeming qualities/bits, and i havent read anything hes done in the last ten years. little drummer girl is the one that turned me off le carre. still dont know anyone whose written as many well-written/highly readable spy novels this side of graham greene
― max, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 13:00 (twelve years ago) link
eric ambler and len deighton are both great when they're on
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 13:04 (twelve years ago) link
Can't think of another actor who's gone from youthful adonis to aged ogre quite so spectacularly.
Needs own thread?
― Euripides Trousers (Tom D.), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 13:13 (twelve years ago) link
went on a hunt to discover when exactly the story is set -- irina says the "ultra-reactionaries" are back in power in westminster (= ted heath presumably!) and smiley notes that the war is 30 years ago: TTSS was publiushed in 74, so that makes it 1970-73 i guess
anyway what i found instead was suggestions who characters were likely based on, which i'd never pursued before (caveat: i think jlc was always stayed coy, which is fair enough)
connie = milicent bagot <-- oddly sad about this, it diminshes connie not to be made up, somehow smiley = maurice oldfield <-- unconvinced by this claim, think smiley is organically a fictional evolutionhaydon = kim philby <-- this is interesting, and maybe more plausible, but it does strange things to the time line, basically extending/shunting a mid-50s story into the early 70s
but actually one of the strengths of the novel is the sense of stuff spilling from an earlier era into a later time: of half the characters as weird left-overs in an era they totally don't understand (jlc is always a bit hopeless actually depicting the modern world, less so at depicting the flailing melancholy of the middle-age not knowing how to negotiate it
http://girlspy.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/millicent-bagot.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7BLh-1UU7pU/Tl4Aid-9zyI/AAAAAAAATu0/ZT8_QRsxTro/s400/oldfield2.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jWsPQF94rz8/TZUVz5hbWJI/AAAAAAAADfo/B1rnWF95VXg/s1600/KimPhilby.jpg
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 15:16 (twelve years ago) link
are there any decent non-fic histories of post-war mi6? I'm always a bit suspicious – the 900pp one that came out last year looked a bit dull (& long). I want traitors + mind games + speculation + sociopathic lunatics messing shit up in bucharest
― you don't exist in the database (woof), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 15:42 (twelve years ago) link
Said 900pp one just got turned back into the library here so I'm going to give it a read. Though presumably it will be fairly dull.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 15:50 (twelve years ago) link
you gotta choose between books by spooks and books by conspiracy nuts for the most part i guess
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUj3uxm_F20
― omar little, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
haydon's christ church gang of aesthetes hammers home the philby-haydon connection iirc
though a perfect spy and tailor of panama have redeeming qualities/bits
saw on the jacket of APS that philip roth says it is 'the best english novel since the war'. i haven't read it but still felt, steady on phil.
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
he must've missed that Tony Parsons joint
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
i've never seen the film version of Spy Who Came in From the Cold - any good? has richard burton EVER been in a good movie?
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:45 (twelve years ago) link
Plenty of praise for said film upthread.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:46 (twelve years ago) link
ty, it seems like the kind of film that is given away free w the daily mail on a regular basis so i will scour the charity shops for a copy
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:52 (twelve years ago) link
dude... where eagles dare.
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i_qxQztHRI (Princess TamTam), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:53 (twelve years ago) link
i've never seen the film version of Spy Who Came in From the Cold - any good? has richard burton EVER been in a good movie?― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:45 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:45 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
a) yeah it's great b) what tammy said
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 20:54 (twelve years ago) link
oh yeah duh forgot where eagles dare, even ingrid pitt is gd in that
i seem to remember reading a v sniffy piece in private eye abt that big, recent 900 page secret service history that woof and ned mention - sounded p compromised/'official', from what i recall. in the 80s (and earlier) you'd often see bestsellery bks abt MI5etc by ppl w wonderful names like Chapman Pincher and Fenton Bresler, wonder who (if anybody) are their equivs today (haven't really 'kept up' w/ the genre)
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:01 (twelve years ago) link
a v sniffy piece in private eye
surely not
― the-dream in the witch house (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
i remember my dad bringing a copy of this back from his travels, seemed awfully exciting
nb i have never read it
― Once Were Moderators (DG), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:11 (twelve years ago) link
copies of spycatcher actually add up to greater biomass than human beings at this point
― thomp, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:16 (twelve years ago) link
a perfect spy is not the best english novel since the war
that would be the satan bug
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:22 (twelve years ago) link
Julie Burchill's Ambition imo
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:24 (twelve years ago) link
i think you're all forgetting a little something called The Rats
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:31 (twelve years ago) link
i dunno i think Lair is probly stronger also i was only half kidding about Julie B
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:32 (twelve years ago) link
Le Carre movie adaptations are a good thread.
I like in descending order:
The Russia HouseThe Spy Who Came in From the ColdThe Tailor of PanamaLittle Drummer Girl
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 21:38 (twelve years ago) link
never seen russia house; have no will ever to see drummer girl
gave tailor of panama a bad review in S&S -- i loved the tailoring (marking up and cutting) in the opening shots, which i assume was not being done by geoffrey rush's hands: it's now the only thing i can remember
spy who came in is good though: kitchen sink, really, except not set in the north obv
i read "the perfect spy" but remember nothing WHATEVER about it
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:34 (twelve years ago) link
and to continue my liveblog of TTSS:
after the school opening and the martindale exposition, the three successive actual-real thriller sections are pretty flawless: the tarr debrief, guillam cases the circus, and smiley visits connie -- there's a lot of storytelling going on in the first and the last, the only time this falters, as noted, is when tarr's reading irina's journal, he tells his own story well but jlc can't find a plausible written voice for her; and the connie section is probably one of the best things her ever wrote (maybe why he tried to top it in smiley's people); guillam in the circus is actually really a way to introduce the opposition as real people, the mcguffin to get him there is negligeable, and meant to be
i'm halfway through smiley's research-and-memory binge now, less successful i'd say, though it pulled one stunt of "reading so deep you forget where you are and being reminded of your surroundings with a start", where smiley does this and jlc causes you to as well, that was neat -- the setting, the crappy little hotel near paddington, is two notches too cartoonish and mimsy
haha i am actually sick of the ann counter-plot already
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:43 (twelve years ago) link
"there's a lot of storytelling going on" -- haha yes very insightful, i mean a lot of characters recounting stories (mainly tarr and connie obv)
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:48 (twelve years ago) link
I haven't read the Le Carre novel on which it's based but except for its stupid ending (which I can't even remember), The Tailor of Panama is good nasty fun.
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:48 (twelve years ago) link
i'd look up my review but that room has no working lightbulbs at the moment
― mark s, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:53 (twelve years ago) link
think i tried to watch that as 'a john boorman film' which was probably the wrong way in
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:55 (twelve years ago) link
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rEEjjIEeZFA/SMXo2VuSf_I/AAAAAAAAACk/0maUZiPz1po/s400/zardoz+head.jpg
"the gun is good, the penis is evil"
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
haha i like some of boorman's films a lot, but that^^^ will always come to mind first
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:02 (twelve years ago) link
ugh
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:42 (twelve years ago) link
has richard burton EVER been in a good movie?
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L-9YmI0V1c
― piscesx, Thursday, 8 September 2011 02:10 (twelve years ago) link
it was only when i listened to the boorman commentary track on the Zardoz DVD that i found out where the title comes from - (wi)zard(of)oz!
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:04 (twelve years ago) link
wha? im p sure it's in the movie. he goes to a library and sees the book
great movie imo
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:16 (twelve years ago) link
"there's a lot of storytelling going on" -- haha yes very insightful, i mean a lot of characters recounting stories (mainly tarr and connie obv)― mark s, Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:48 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark
― mark s, Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:48 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark
yeah. i think 'small town in germany' is the most 'and then he met x who told him y'. but this has a bit of it.
anyway, i think the novel makes it a lot more abt prideaux, not just by starting with him, but by making his debrief to smiley sorta the climax. big build-up, and it goes on for a minute. by reordering the sequence -- we know what happened to prideaux from the jump -- the novel makes it less about prideaux's personal betrayal by gerald. going to watch series again though.
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:28 (twelve years ago) link
i like ASTIG though. kinda like a david peace who doesn't suck.
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:32 (twelve years ago) link
haha will have to rescreen zardoz, maybe i was distracted by connery's codpiece
can't really get behind equus as a good movie, btw - ts: anthony shaffer vs peter shaffer
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:47 (twelve years ago) link
it is a treat to have mark s liveblogging TTSS, also
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:48 (twelve years ago) link
Reading some of the stuff about TTSS, and the nods that Smiley - though loyal, and diligent – is suffused with a sense of distaste and guilt about the whole game reminded me about The Spy Who Came in From the Cold, where - as an incidental character - he is responsible (albeit perhaps inadvertently) for the betrayal and eventual death of Nan. In TSWCIFTC he's still very much part of the machine – though it's never referred in the Smiley trilogy, maybe his role in Nan's death haunts him.
― Trudi Styler, the Creator (ithappens), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:00 (twelve years ago) link
Equus is an unnecessary filming of a middling play, true. Zulu is good, obv, as is Virginia Woolf and Villain and probly Absolution if you're in the mood.
Prideaux is Le Carre's good chap to contrast to all the shifty bounders - maybe including Smiley - in the rest of the novel. I suspect Le Carre thinks he's the hero in some ways, but at least he comes across as kinda decent, unlike Westerby in The Honourable Schoolboy who occupies the same role but is mostly a fucking dick imo.
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:02 (twelve years ago) link
the one time i tried to watch Villain it was interrupted by the start of the first gulf war!
i've been wrong so often on this thread i hesitate to ask but - burton is zulu??
i also forgot abt the medusa touch, which has some of the some atmos as the tv version of TTSS, funnily enough - britain on the cusp of thatcherism, resigned middle aged men in suits, london as a place of emptiness (morally, geographically)
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:08 (twelve years ago) link
nah Burton's not Zulu i've just mixed him up with Stanley Baker in my head, common mistake round our way. pretty sure Baker did a movie on similar lines to Villain that's superior, too
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:10 (twelve years ago) link
Not "The Criminal", the title's similar but the film isn't!
― Euripides Trousers (Tom D.), Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:11 (twelve years ago) link
Probberly "Robbery"?
― Euripides Trousers (Tom D.), Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:12 (twelve years ago) link
think it might be Robbery yeah
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:13 (twelve years ago) link
yes, TTSS puts prideaux early and central and adores him, and we're meant to also (in real-life company, prideaux would be an intolerable chauvinist bore, mind you) (albeit largely as cover): we know that something happened to him, not exactly what yet [as of p.162] except he was shot in the shoulder in czecho <-- smiley doesn't really know much of it at this point [p.162] either
one thing i'm finding it VERY hard to do is read as if i don't know who the mole is: obviously i've known for something like 30 years -- jlc treats him with kids gloves AND lampshade hangs wildly all about him; that's to say smiley is overly bothered in effect by how the story is treating gerald (this is largely what bothers me about the ann stuff i think: the extent to which it's ONLY distractional sleight-of-hand -- one thing guinness manages no better than jlc is making the smiley-ann marriage remotely believable, actually, even tho siân phillips makes ann believable; in a sense we keep reading i suspect because we want to crack this mystery, but are left basically clueless) (as clueless as smiley, yes, DO YOU SEE, but that's a bullshit move, really )
the entire novel is smiley's atonement for the death of nan, yes: a long and elaborate proof that nothing nasty he ever formerly had responsibility for was actually really his fault, it is all totally at karla's door
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:39 (twelve years ago) link
All the way through the tv show, right up to the last episode, I presumed Ann was going to turn out to be some elaborate beard :/
― Stevie T, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:44 (twelve years ago) link
haha elaborate beard = zardoz.jpg <-- if boorman had filmed it
re proof: trust the tale not the teller: jlc/smiley is convinced by his own argument, i think, but the reader -- attentive to the situational method, when it's on and when it's flawed - is not
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:48 (twelve years ago) link