sweet dn you have there
― unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:09 (twelve years ago) link
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/003/980/hold-all-these-limes.jpg
― BIG ROOSD aka the WTCdriver (Phil D.), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:10 (twelve years ago) link
I'm imagining those as growing out of his hand and I am flipping the fuck out.
― kkvgz, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:12 (twelve years ago) link
lime disease is no laughing matter
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:15 (twelve years ago) link
Is that when you forget to wash off the limes before slicing them, putting them in your drink, and realizing your g&t is ruined and make horrible faces?
― unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:17 (twelve years ago) link
thx for the article, kkvgz
An acquaintance from the Inf. Dis. Society of Americas said that she and her colleagues got *death threats* after the IDSA published clinical practice guidelines on Lyme which said that chronic Lyme was not a real deal and docs needed to knock it off with the long term antibiotic therapy.
yeah, they were ~not pleased~ by this:
Physicians and laypeople who believe in the existence of chronic Lyme disease have formed societies, created charitable foundations, started numerous support groups (even in locations in which B. burgdorferi infection is not endemic), and developed their own management guidelines.5 Scientists who challenge the notion of chronic Lyme disease have been criticized severely.The attorney general of Connecticut has begun an unprecedented antitrust investigation of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, which issued treatment guidelines for Lyme disease that do not support open-ended antibiotic treatment regimens.2 In some states, legislation has been proposed to require insurance companies to pay for prolonged intravenous therapy to treat chronic Lyme disease. The media frequently disregard complex scientific data in favor of testimonials about patients suffering from purported chronic Lyme disease and may even question the competence of clinicians who are reluctant to diagnose chronic Lyme disease. All these factors have contributed to a great deal of public confusion with little appreciation of the serious harm caused to many patients who have received a misdiagnosis and have been inappropriately treated.
The attorney general of Connecticut has begun an unprecedented antitrust investigation of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, which issued treatment guidelines for Lyme disease that do not support open-ended antibiotic treatment regimens.2 In some states, legislation has been proposed to require insurance companies to pay for prolonged intravenous therapy to treat chronic Lyme disease. The media frequently disregard complex scientific data in favor of testimonials about patients suffering from purported chronic Lyme disease and may even question the competence of clinicians who are reluctant to diagnose chronic Lyme disease. All these factors have contributed to a great deal of public confusion with little appreciation of the serious harm caused to many patients who have received a misdiagnosis and have been inappropriately treated.
from http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra072023
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
Belief molds perception of reality; believing is seeing.
― Blind Diode Jefferson (kingfish), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:28 (twelve years ago) link
I'm obviously slow, I can't wrap my head around this Lyme disease controversy. I get why the whole Autism/vaccination debate persists, but I don't get the Lyme disease one at all. Can someone explain?
― Moodles, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:10 (twelve years ago) link
it sounds like there are people who don't really have Lyme's Disease and test negative for it, but they have chronic fatigue and so they diagnose themselves with "Chronic Lymes" which isn't actually a thing that exists?
― the wheelie king (wk), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:12 (twelve years ago) link
So it's about being able to claim you have a disease vs. you're really just lazy/depressed.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:13 (twelve years ago) link
that was supposed to be a question...
and I guess some people are taking regular antibiotics for their "chronic Lyme's" which is a really bad idea
― the wheelie king (wk), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:15 (twelve years ago) link
Sounds to me like they may or may not have had lyme disease, probably test negative for it, but still are lethargic and think they're going to cure that by taking antibiotics for the long term.
― mh, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:22 (twelve years ago) link
― the wheelie king (wk), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:12 (25 minutes ago)
Yes, this is curious. CFS almost always begins with some sort of viral/medical episode (which is part why CFS patients are so angered by claims it's "all in their head"), so it seems more likely that they had lyme's disease at some point and now have CFS as a result. Which is why the antibiotic treatments are useless.
― Matt Armstrong, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:44 (twelve years ago) link
Sounds pretty stupid as a trend, but not as malevolent as the whole anti-vaccination thing.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:46 (twelve years ago) link
Unless there start to be enough of them that bacteria with broad-spectrum antibiotic resistance start to flourish and spread to the rest of the population
― mh, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:50 (twelve years ago) link
there's a lot to talk about in terms of chronic disease that has a greater or lesser psych component manifesting as physically felt symptoms - I think going w/"so it's in their heads!" is unproductive really, and
well - "depressed" close, "lazy" no I don't think. I think the deal is actually that people are different and there really isn't one model for how to be a healthy person, but society & its expectations are set up on around the concept of a healthy baseline for wakefulness/productivity/energy that doesn't really take into account different individual levels of tolerance for activity/stimulation/pain etc. my own I'm-not-an-MD take on a number of these syndromes is that in some cases people are expressing a need to put a name to the vague feeling that there's something wrong with them - that if they don't live up to an idea of "normal" that they have, then the way they feel every day needs to be pathologized for them to feel "ok," in a weird sense.
― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:55 (twelve years ago) link
^^ very otm, the normal you have at different ages varies, too, and your needs can change accordingly.
I have a family member who has exhibited some of the signs that typify something autoimmune like lupus, but it turns out that for some conditions like that, you have to manifest a certain number of symptoms over years to really qualify for a specific diagnosis. Until then, it's just, "Hey, I guess you have some weird symptoms, maybe we'll figure out what's up with that."
― mh, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 19:59 (twelve years ago) link
if they don't live up to an idea of "normal" that they have, then the way they feel every day needs to be pathologized for them to feel "ok," in a weird sense.
totally
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
u&kjenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 20:27 (twelve years ago) link
my own I'm-not-an-MD take on a number of these syndromes is that in some cases people are expressing a need to put a name to the vague feeling that there's something wrong with them - that if they don't live up to an idea of "normal" that they have, then the way they feel every day needs to be pathologized for them to feel "ok," in a weird sense.
― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, September 6, 2011 7:55 PM (1 hour ago)
to put it another way: let's say chronic fatigue isn't a "disease" per se but instead just a permanent downgrade of one's health/ energy level caused by an immune system response to some viral infection/trauma at some point (usually epstein-barr, but I know a person who got it after open-heart surgery). Why not just treat it as a disability? Why does it have to be either mental illness or a physiological disease?
― Matt Armstrong, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 21:17 (twelve years ago) link
I think you just described a cause, though?
― mh, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 21:20 (twelve years ago) link
I'm gonna tread lightly here, but since no one has actually elaborated the etiology if CFS to a degree that is widely accepted, it still gets called a "syndrome". This says nothing about the severity/disability of the condition, but the actual cause of CFS is an open question iirc
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 21:58 (twelve years ago) link
"of"
this is why it's generally regarded as a diagnosis of exclusion fwiw
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 21:59 (twelve years ago) link
EBV as etiological agent has been more or less ruled out iirc
But hey, I'm not saying that certain types of feeling like shit are OK and other types of feeling like shit are less OK. If you feel like shit, that is a problem. But it does not mean you have chronic lyme. You can acknowledge and legitimize the significance of feeling like shit without acknowledging and legitimizing theories like vaccination -->autism, EBV-->CFS, and lyme-->chronic lyme
― quincie, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 23:43 (twelve years ago) link
Interesting that its linked with "chronic lyme" (lol wow) because over here, or with people I know more to the point, the CFS thing is linked to somethign called "fybromyalgia" and I have no idea what that even IS, but it seems to result in these vaguely achy, very tired women (always women?) going to doctors constantly, being told they cant find anything wrong with them, and sinking time and money into a ton of crazy/random treatments, none of which ever seem to work.
― Silent Hedgehogs (Trayce), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 23:44 (twelve years ago) link
I get this weird back/shoulder pain occasionally that I can't figure out why - it's probably muscular, but I was looking online to see if I could find what is causing it, and 'fibromyalgia' kept popping up. I'd never heard of it but it sounds so vague I don't think it was anything to do with my problem, but I guess a 'diagnosis of exclusion' is always going to seem like an answer.
― kinder, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 23:53 (twelve years ago) link
speaking of vaccines, the NEJM has an interesting thing on the progress being made in the world of HIV vaccines....p cool
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:50 (twelve years ago) link
link?
― remy bean, Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:09 (twelve years ago) link
ha yeah duh, sorry. on iPhone, will post
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:10 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1107621
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:11 (twelve years ago) link
this is kind of a booming post imo:http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1107189
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:17 (twelve years ago) link
friend of mine doing work in Africa put up an interesting post on his blog the other day, too (posted in the Africa brb thread) that mentions how HIV/AIDS is really a chronic disease now for many ppl, which is sort of mirrored way of looking at that NEJM piece.
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:19 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2011/sep/14/michele-bachmann-republicans-hpv-vaccine
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 10:40 (twelve years ago) link
the ny-er blog rebuttal of bachmann's claim was excellent & concise
― and my soul said you can't go there (schlump), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 10:47 (twelve years ago) link
some of the comments over at NRO were excellent and concise, too! while i doubt this single issue will sink her, i think that her stance on the HPV vaccine is going to make a lot of conservatives sit up and go "wait what"
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 14:53 (twelve years ago) link
HPV vaccine promotes promiscuous sex and that's bad and if you get cervical cancer then your church and community will chip in money to pay for your treatment because insurance is bad.
― mh, Wednesday, 14 September 2011 14:59 (twelve years ago) link
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/9/13/1315879870968/Michele-Bachmann-speaks-d-007.jpghttp://i51.tinypic.com/9lddv4.jpg
― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 14 September 2011 15:50 (twelve years ago) link
An example of right wing blogs melting down. (Not so much the otherwise batshit author, who here is essentially sane on the point and the relevant issues, but check the comments.)
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 14 September 2011 15:54 (twelve years ago) link
We had some of the same issues in the UK, but the government listened to scientists rather than crazies. Of course if the crazies are the government...
― Zonules of Zinn (dowd), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 19:45 (twelve years ago) link
Interesting to see the Bachmann hate there
― em vee equals pea queue (Michael White), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 19:53 (twelve years ago) link
She hasn't made any public statement since the debate and post-debate comments, right? Looking forward to the spin from someone who really can't blame the media on this one.
― Antonio Carlos Broheem (WmC), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 20:03 (twelve years ago) link
I was looking online to see if I could find what is causing it, and 'fibromyalgia' kept popping up. I'd never heard of it but it sounds so vague I don't think it was anything to do with my problem, but I guess a 'diagnosis of exclusion' is always going to seem like an answer.
It is vague (and also called myositis). "I have a chronic, non-localized pain, and doctors haven't been able to determine why." Leading theory is that it's due to overactive nerves (akin to an autoimmune d/o, but w/nerves), but lots of doctors/scientists don't think it's an actual disease.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
...myositis just means "inflamed muscle tissue". it refers to a histological state, not a specific disease, per se. cf gastritis, meningitis, etc
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
right but a person could go to one doctor w/these symptoms and be told it's fibromyalgia, go to another and be told it's myositis. like GERD=gastritis.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 20:48 (twelve years ago) link
MYOSITIS is inflammation of muscle tissues. FIBROSITIS is inflammation of the fibrous connective tis-sue of muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, and other connective tissues. MYOFIBROSITIS is a combination of muscle and connective tissue inflammation. FIBROMYALGIA indicates pain in fibrous tissues, muscles, tendons, ligaments, and other sites.
^all "you've got non-specific pain, and we've excluded RA etc"
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 20:53 (twelve years ago) link
sort of...thing is, there are lab tests for myositis (eg elevated creatinine) that could confirm the diagnosis, which could then point the doc to the underlying cause (eg yr on statins).
the whole dx of exclusion thing with fibromyalgia lies in that it's what you turn to when you've exhausted all the other possibilities. I think some ppl mistake it for being a pejorative term or something, like why would a doctor consider it last, least important/likely, and do all this other testing first??? when really it's simply because tests actually exist for other, treatable things so may as well make sure it isn't any of those. it isn't because docs have necessarily relegated fibromyalgia to some non-disease status, and they will only diagnose it if they ~have~ to, grudgingly, it's because there's no objective markers for it (afaik) and the clinical presentation is so non-specific that it would be irresponsible to not exhaust the other possibilities
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
xp obv
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 21:04 (twelve years ago) link
also, wrt those defs you posted, I ~think~ the reason fibromyalgia gets it's name is not just because it's painful, but, crucially, because it's pain in the absence of obvious inflammation.
― remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Wednesday, 14 September 2011 21:06 (twelve years ago) link