generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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gen x: lazy
millennials: overeducated, prob a little lazy, mostly just fucked

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:24 (six years ago) Permalink

that article feels more like "aimless 20 somethings not sure of what they want to do", today's version of "aimless 20 somethings WANT to do something but finding all doors shut"

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:25 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah as far as I can tell In This Economy™ what used to be entry-level jobs all advertise as requiring 3 years experience. I somehow have gotten a few interviews anyway but every time one peters out I just get less interested in applying for more programming jobs and more interested in killing time until grad school.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:25 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm a phil-ah-soh-pher

which btw shouldn't be conflated with "the liberal arts" b/c our students aren't usually the dreamy-wanna-write-a-story types, rather they're the mass debater types & go on to do analytic work & typically get pretty well paid (unless they go to grad school obv)

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:54 (six years ago) Permalink

you mean @ your school or philosophy majors in general

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:55 (six years ago) Permalink

Not really involved in the discussion but here's a link that might be of interest - http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/08/31/historical-trends-in-college-tuition/

The linked post about the retained value of a college degree is also worth a look.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:55 (six years ago) Permalink

both xp unless we're talking continental philosophers w/ all that crit theory bullshit & that's just dreamy-wanna-write-a-story stuff that isn't gonna get you anywhere

obv I am a pawn of the status quo

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:56 (six years ago) Permalink

I dunno I think their prospects aren't much different from english majors or whatever, they just have a higher tendency to go to law school

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:58 (six years ago) Permalink

if I owned 'generic business' I would totally hire a bunch of philosophy majors tho, seems like an undervalued asset (as long as I didn't have to talk to them)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:00 (six years ago) Permalink

what if 'generic business' was a 'medicinal marijuana shop'

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:01 (six years ago) Permalink

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:02 (six years ago) Permalink

xp lol

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (six years ago) Permalink

Got turned down for a job I had two interviews for today. FUCK THIS SHIT.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (six years ago) Permalink

xps to Euler: see I don't like the idea of denigrating "the liberal arts" as a thing, I legitimately believe that the liberal arts (including liberal study of the sciences) are the foundation of a democratic society; this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education. College as a job-training-and-credentialing exercise is just going to become a worse and worse value proposition (though it honestly isn't now, as college grads are still outperforming non-college-grads in the job market, modulo debt I guess), especially because the academy moves so slowly that by the time it has figured out how to prepare students for the economy of 2011 it'll be 2038.

a hoy hoy: YEAH NO KIDDIN

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:06 (six years ago) Permalink

this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education it's becoming less of this all the time

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah I would like to see more discussion of the value of a liberal arts education itt. think a lot of ppl (though not all) who post to ILX prob have a degree in the liberal arts and went to liberal arts colleges?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (six years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (six years ago) Permalink

my hs had it, I didn't take it

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (six years ago) Permalink

^^^we did and I managed to studiously avoid all of them

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:09 (six years ago) Permalink

we also had an auto-repair type class, I think

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:10 (six years ago) Permalink

the stuff I learned in my hs journalism class - particularly how to write, use a computer, and lay things out - came in much handier professionally than anything I learned in college, really. but liberal arts degrees/colleges are not really about learning a specific subject matter imho, they're about training your mind to think critically and work in different contexts.

I would definitely be making more money in the same industry I'm in now if I'd gotten an engineering degree, but I always hated math.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:11 (six years ago) Permalink

school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:12 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah 'critical thinking' is the rote response to people who question the value of a liberal arts education

I'm still trying to think through the true value of the ability to 'think critically' in the job market

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:14 (six years ago) Permalink

dayo it was called the vocational wing in my hs

also folks, this is my line of work and i have a lot of relevant things to say, but i would really rather not discuss it publicly for a variety of reasons

xp - critical thinking is REALLY IMPORTANT esp if you don't have very good critical thinking skills

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:15 (six years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

Was v sad when I had to give up woodshop b/c there was no room for it in the college-prep curriculum. It was down to shop or band, and marching band won.

Just think, I could have grown up to be a stoner!

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:16 (six years ago) Permalink

I tend to take Dewey's line about the value of a liberal-arts-education in creating & nourishing a populace able to handle democracy

+ DFW's take in his Kenyon graduation address

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:17 (six years ago) Permalink

oh I totally agree that critical thinking is implicitly and in and of itself a valuable skill, LL - but that's not how all employers see it

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (six years ago) Permalink

ps - i had shop class in middle school

it's an important skill to have as a human being, not as an employee

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (six years ago) Permalink

I think that the american liberal arts education actually contributes substantial economic value to this country - overall we had a much more adaptable job market in the late 20th century than most of the world. more engineers would be good too, but an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?) most contemporary jobs don't require specific training and in better economic times can be learned on-the-job.

said it in the other thread but the bigger problems are:
a. jobs! (I know underemployed engineers from good schools!)
b. cost

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:19 (six years ago) Permalink

i do not work at a liberal arts school btw

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:20 (six years ago) Permalink

liberal arts school can't really be blamed for 0 net job growth this month

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (six years ago) Permalink

last month, rather

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (six years ago) Permalink

schools

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (six years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (six years ago) Permalink

ime the critical thinking tends to be "i wish i hadn't done a useless humanities degree"

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (six years ago) Permalink

The public university at which I work has increased tuition and enrollment geometrically in the last two years to compensate for evaporating state funding, with no commensurate strengthening of infrastructure.

The quality of students haven't changed much except I'm seeing more examples of mediocrities: girls getting psych degrees as a time killer before marriage because their parents press on them the importance of a college education, guys getting business degrees because, well, they want to start their own franchises, and journalism majors who don't realize how useless that degree is and always was.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (six years ago) Permalink

true everywhere

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:23 (six years ago) Permalink

an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?)

Would it be like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXBL6bzAR4

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (six years ago) Permalink

working nights did not come in handy today. someone called me about an hour into my sleep (10? 11am?) and I gave off the just the most generic dozed pitch, can't even remember what company they were calling from.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (six years ago) Permalink

lol @ 50% engineer economy; welcome to China :(

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (six years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

― Euler, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:22 PM

ultimately we're being fucked by people in dc and wall street, lots of them went to ivies, all of them are rich, it's not completely hors-sujet

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:25 (six years ago) Permalink

all we needs are farmers and abstract artists

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:27 (six years ago) Permalink

problem with america is not enough grant woods

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (six years ago) Permalink

"school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side"

i really view this as a positive when applied to the evil ambitions of... a lot of people frankly. what other civilizing institutions do we have other than compulsory education? I agree with Thiel in the sense that a lot of motivated people would be personally, selfishly better off not pursuing advanced degrees and doing startups straight from high school, but I disagree that it's a net positive for society.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (six years ago) Permalink

it seems weird that so mnay people spend so much money on rent/mortgage - seems like just money going to rich banker types instead of food, healthfcare etc

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (six years ago) Permalink

food and health care $ is also mostly going to evil rich people

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (six years ago) Permalink

Nunez - that was just my individual experience - I did however enjoy doodling in the margins of notebooks and dyadreamin

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (six years ago) Permalink

we all dreamed of dyao in school

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (six years ago) Permalink

really Mr Spock, cant we have a spciaety where people dont have to pay fuckin mortgages!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (six years ago) Permalink

otm xp

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (six years ago) Permalink

Dunno, maybe things are just terrible in the US.

Wait til you hear about our healthcare system...

louise ck (milo z), Saturday, 16 December 2017 08:31 (one month ago) Permalink

sry to hear about crazy rent everybody, that's terrible!

just to clarify I rent a very small room and spend about 25% of my income on this - renting an apartment on my own would easily cost 50% of my income (so I don't, would be nice tho)

btw I know it's hard to come by steady jobs in journalism, I was suggesting that with the author's skillset it would seem he'd be able to land a different kind of job, pretty sure he could have my job if he applied

anyway, I don't mean to dismiss issues of poverty in the US, just found the author's tone... a bit much. Iirc pay gap and poverty issues have a terrible racial and gender slant, something about his apocalyptical victim narrative abt college educated millenials seems off to me. Not sure how trustworthy the US Census Bureau is but general outline in this article seems realistic to me https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493751949/census-bureau-poverty-rate-down-median-incomes-up

niels, Saturday, 16 December 2017 09:48 (one month ago) Permalink

Hobbes is from Seattle where the average rent in commuting distance on a 1br apartment is $2000. To hit the 25% mark, after federal taxes, etc, you’d need to earn $120k - of course he would still need to pay for healthcare, etc, which we do not. idk what the ratio of millennials to $120k jobs in Seattle is.

Renting a room, sharing a house, etc are all solutions to existing in a big city but the broader point about living in those conditions being a bar on a transition to doing ‘adult’ things like getting married, having a family...buying a table?…, etc is true. Living a perpetual student lifestyle is great if you enjoy it but generational expectations are being radically redefined.

Whiny millennials have access to the public ear in a much more obvious way than the people who bear the greatest burden of poverty but the contraction of the traditional middle class and expansion of paycheque-to-paycheque living aren’t things that we should be glossing over because other people have it worse.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, 16 December 2017 10:04 (one month ago) Permalink

French owners are allowed by law to avoid renting to you unless the rent is at most 1/3 of your income, and in practice they take advantage of this, because French law makes it hard to kick someone out when they can't pay. so when we moved here we had to live 1h20 by train from the city. granted, we are a family of 5, and so need a bit of space (~70 m^2 works) but yeah, living in the city was impossible then.

now we live in the city because we got social housing (being gov employee with a long commute & big family got us priority). but to qualify for this *highly* subsidized apartment my salary still had to meet the 1/3 threshold and my starting salary did not, so we had to wait a year and a half to be eligible for social housing.

living in the countryside & commuting wasn't that bad because I picked a town where I could commute by train (we didn't need a car bc French villages are compact for daily life)(and half my transport costs were paid by my employer, by law). USA countryside doesn't permit this, so you're talking long car commutes there if you're not in the city.

droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 16 December 2017 10:27 (one month ago) Permalink

Accounting for inflation, I spend twice as much a year on a train ticket as my (poor, immigrant) father spent on renting a two bedroom Victorian flat with a huge garden in central London in the eighties. The flat would rent for a minimum of £36k-£40k a year now. And I’m lucky! I own a house!

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, 16 December 2017 10:33 (one month ago) Permalink

What was his internet speeds like

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Saturday, 16 December 2017 10:57 (one month ago) Permalink

those are very good points ShariVari, thanks

niels, Saturday, 16 December 2017 11:36 (one month ago) Permalink

The ratio of Millennials to $120k salaries in Seattle is heavily influenced by the proliferation of software developers working for Amazon et alia. Which is to say there’s a sizable supply of kids willing to rent a studio for $2000.

.oO (silby), Saturday, 16 December 2017 15:55 (one month ago) Permalink

every generation has seemed to rationalize selling out their potential and playing dumb in exchange for hypothetical material security, not just millenials, the poor kids

reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 16 December 2017 20:38 (one month ago) Permalink

When you say something like that

Do you ever I mean ask

Assuming it even makes any sense as a statement never mind that it's accurate let's just assume in your head this is a coherent sentence and also a fact

Assuming that and don't forget you just made an ass out of u and ming then do you ever ask yourself why each generation does this thing you think they do

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 17 December 2017 23:49 (one month ago) Permalink

U ok hun

But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 18 December 2017 01:21 (one month ago) Permalink

I feel like that highline article dilutes its own argument by ultimately turning out to be about every bunch of Americans who ever graduated college during a major recession.

El Tomboto, Monday, 18 December 2017 01:34 (one month ago) Permalink

eh i'll take it, all that damn "milleniums are the worst" clickbait trash needs to be countered a little bit

Nhex, Monday, 18 December 2017 03:37 (one month ago) Permalink

U ok hun

― But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 18 December 2017 01:21 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Read it aloud babes it might make more sense if it doesn't that's cool too x

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 18 December 2017 04:04 (one month ago) Permalink

yeah average rent is like 2 K in vancouver now, it's fucking bunk. also same as jim i'm in a decent rent sitch but it's easy to put half the cheque towards rent

In a slipshod style (Ross), Monday, 18 December 2017 04:50 (one month ago) Permalink

I live in a pretty small basement apt in Toronto and I spend about 40% of my take-home on rent.

Simon H., Monday, 18 December 2017 04:59 (one month ago) Permalink


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