T/S: John Hughes vs. Judd Apatow

Mentally ill? No way. Alcoholic, probably, but she's no more mentally ill than the Joel character with his jealous fits.

Okay, I will put some cards on the table and just ask if this is maybe just very male of me: I think I at least prefer the mentality of these male-POV films -- where there is some sense of wonder over the woman's kookiness/adultness that winds up changing the character -- to a lot of female-aimed romcoms, where the male lead seems to just fit a type, and doesn't change the character except by more or less being a high-quality romantic consumer good that she attains. (This surely has to do with most rom-coms aimed at women still being made by men who are maybe guessing/condescending about what women like/want.)

P.S. OMG if you want to talk about kooky-savior sub-Garden State trainwrecks, did anyone see ELIZABETHTOWN??? I could watch this movie forever, it's so mixed-up and bizarre, like 15 minutes of a fairly good Crowe movie scattered amid 100 minutes of cringing awfulness.

a-ha. see, i think most people who have a problem with bueller are upset by the notion that for some/many people it is neither wretched nor somber, and they pretend that the refusal to deny this is right-wing.

gabbneb, my teenage years were neither wretched nor somber. Ferris is a cute asshole. While I know many teenagers (lots of my friends at the time) loved FB because its protagonist was a cute asshole who jerked everyone around, including the best friend he only half-heartedly cares about (I always found it weird that it's Sloan who cradles his head and actually tries to talk to him while Ferris munches thoughtfully on Oreos), it's a state of mind that's enfeebling and increasingly self-centered. That's one version of Reaganism.

I would argue that "her kookiness will save me," while an element of the Joel-Clementine relationship in Eternal Sunshine, is not ultimately what the movie is about.

what female-aimed romcoms are we talking about? the ones I like probably do a less-good characterization of the dude than the woman, but I don't think he becomes a consumer good.

"her kookiness will crash my car"

The 'it's Reaganism' stuff has officially been pushed to the limit.

Okay full disclosure: I hate movies (and books, for that matter) about people's mental states, so I don't see a lot of these or pay very much attention. So yeah sorry, I'm sort of just throwing out ideas w/o much follow-up.

Uh Nabs, I might be more inclined to agree w/ you if "my kookiness will save him" wasn't one of the most useless Real Life directives ever.

Male writer-directors assume kookiness denotes depth.

do you guys know the theory that ferris and camron are two sides of the same person? the one thing i remember from first year physics

P.P.S. The award for Most Vestigial Significant Other in Recent Light Entertainment totally goes to the boyfriend in The Devil Wears Prada.

(one sec while I think of examples, horseshoe -- I might be misled here by seeing less adult female-aimed rom-coms than teenage ones, where it makes slightly more sense for the guy to just be a distant hunk-figure)

do you guys know the theory that ferris and camron are two sides of the same person?

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/b/j/kerry_edwards_dumb_dumber.jpg

the one that's popping into my head is that one from years ago with Hope Davis, Next Stop Wonderland? which is way more about her than dude, yeah. why can't I think of more? in theory it's a female-aimed genre, right?

Some of you dingalings are possibly missing there was such a thing as CULTURAL Reaganism -- ie, how '80s American movies all seemed to end with Eddie Murphy or John Candy smiling in freeze-frame.

And now, folks seem only to get excited about American movies that are (to one degree or another) big-screen TV shows.

I hate movies (and books, for that matter) about people's mental states

I'm not sure what this means...? I mean, you could make an argument that anything character-driven is "about people's mental states."

see, i think most people who have a problem with bueller are upset by the notion that for some/many people it is neither wretched nor somber, and they pretend that the refusal to deny this is right-wing.

this is some seriously lame standard "you're just jealous!" anti-critic malarkey

Next Stop Wonderland was fairly indie, though -- the more I think about it, the more it might just be that lots of female-aimed romantic comedies are big-studio mass-market movies, where a lot of the ones we're thinking of as male-POV ones are a shade more independent, or coming from a known-entity director, or whatever.

Some of you dingalings are possibly missing there was such a thing as CULTURAL Reaganism

OK, it's 80s, I get that. But Reaganist? In what sense? Freeze frames in particular have some characteristic about them that makes them Reaganesque? If everything in the 80s is defined by the sitting president at the time, then the terrorists have already won.

romantic comedies with flawed/realistic female protagonists and shallow/glorified males

Sex and the City is a good example of a romantic comedy - albeit televised - where the female characters are relatively complex, and the male characters are desireable goods. Basic formula is that girl encounters guy, girl likes guy, guy turns out to have deal-breaking flaw, girl moves on. As the show progressed, the longer running male characters became better developed, but remained secondary.

Lots of romantic comedies work this way: Bridget Jones flicks, Pretty In Pink, Pretty Woman, etc. The more non-generic characteristics a guy has, the less desireable he is.

okay, I don't have time to get into it right now, but Pretty in Pink has many fine qualities!

Awwww I do love Next Stop, Wonderland but it's sort of a dark, small movie that doesn't promise so much to its characters, I think. XP yes, Nabisco, that too.

JMC, I think I meant stories in which how people FEEL about things is more important than what actually HAPPENS. Not b/c I think feelings are invalid in real life but because I think examining fictional emotions is such a bottomless pit/black hole for me mentally.

It's not quite a comedy, either, but Taye Diggs in How Stella Got Her Groove Back is basically a one-dimensional hunk, IIRC.

I love how in irl that character turned out to be gay and ditched her

u love it

Add to list: that new Catherine Zeta-Jones movie, various more teenagey ones where someone meets the prince of an imaginary European nation and he is endlessly, blandly, inhumanly nice, etc. ...

I didn't meant to prejudice the description too much by calling them "consumer goods," just that in a lot of the really pop-aimed ones the guy is generically dreamy and supportive and flawless, and instead of having personality characteristics he is interested in helping the female lead with hers. (Something like the stock cardboard "hot chick," except with dialogue.) It's not any more wish-fulfillment than the other way around -- I guess the thing I was trying to get at is that wondrousness over the kooky savior or whatever at least constitutes some kind of emotional reaction to another specific person, as opposed to someone blandly filling in a role it's assumed women must need to be filled.

and instead of having personality characteristics he is interested in helping the female lead with hers.

I know what you're talking about now. I've seen a lot of movies where a guy comes over to fix the cable, you know, and he's like, interested in helping the female character.

Taye Diggs in How Stella Got Her Groove Back is basically a one-dimensional hunk

Re: Nabisco

Maybe it's the same though. In the male POV version, they guy is either trapped in adolescence (40 Year Old Virgin) or trapped in boring adult routine (Stranger Than Fiction). Needs girl-object to become fully human.

What do I look like, the Blue fucking Fairy?

Uh and by "I", I of course meant "we". Or even "women" in a completely general sense. Of course.

Under the Tuscan Sun is in the same category as How Stella Got Her Groove Back, I suspect. Middle-aged woman has all sorts of emotional and sexual revelations jump-started by fling with romance-novel cut-out.

It's weird to wonder whether substantive character stuff on BOTH ends can be fitted into rom-coms!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8e/He_said_she_said.jpg/200px-He_said_she_said.jpg

so ahead of its time

it's not like female-driven romcoms are hard to find, it's like 50% of the respective filmographies of Julia Roberts, Reese Witherspoon, Debra Messing, Ashley Judd, etc. it would be pretty interesting to count up how many of those movies have female writers or directors vs. male.

the elephant in the room is that most all movies about couples are going to tell the story at least slightly from one half's perspective more than the other, and that's always going to shade how you measure these things.

Don't say that about Witherspoon, dude, ILX will hand you your tongue.

Also, to be fair to Ashley Judd, she's more often caught up in some sort of conspiracy that involves masked men chasing her through a forest.

I really hate the way that they stereotype masked men.

I don't think that Al was making any sort of value judgment!

Serious question: does Laurel look like the Blue fucking Fairy?

I used to really love Reese - she had quite a streak of quality material - but what has she done for me lately

reese wins forever just for cruel intentions

But Reaganist? In what sense? Freeze frames in particular have some characteristic about them that makes them Reaganesque?

If they come at the end of a dumb and shallow 'feelgood' narrative, yes.

You know, I think I could use you in a movie role Morbius. How are you at 'kookie'?

I think Alfred goes over the Reagan-stuff pretty well upthread (idealization of suburbs and corresponding fear of urban-dwelling minorities/homeless, loads of mindless conspicuous consumption, etc etc)

Yes of course, but we're talking about freeze frames? I mean, we're not talking about the suburbs. We're talking about freeze frames. Not, not what actually goes on in the movie. We're talking about freeze frames.

I prefer movies that end with Rodney Dangerfield and a Journey song and a big party

xpost

Yes. If you don't understand how a smiley freezeframe that's sposed to send you out happy and stupid (while the presold soundtrack hit plays)is a characteristic of post-Star Wars shit, well...

Throw in a few lines of coke, a chastised liberal, an Air Force pilot (secretly gay), and I will conced Reaganesque.

a cute asshole who jerked everyone around, including the best friend he only half-heartedly cares about

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MOVIE IS TO HELP THE BEST FRIEND BECOME HIMSELF AND THEREFORE TRULY HAPPY BY GETTING OUT FROM UNDER HIS PARENTS (AND EN PASSANT DESTROY A BIG YUPPIE DOUCHEBAG LUXURY ITEM) - THE EXTREMELY HOT GIRLFRIEND IS VESTIGIAL (YES, MORBS, IT'S VERY MISOGYNISTIC), THE LOVE STORY IS BETWEEN THE FRIENDS - DO YOU PEOPLE NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE PLOT?

happy and stupid

guys, everyone who is happy is stupid

gabbneb the car is destroyed by accident, not by design or because of some anti-materialistic "free yourself of your posessions" logic