is Superman's lack of a decent rogues gallery the Silver Age's fault?

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One of the very likeable things about Mark Waid's current version of the Legion is that they are most definitely doing everything they can to change the status quo of their era.

Matthew Perpetua! (Matthew Perpetua!), Tuesday, 5 September 2006 12:19 (seventeen years ago) link

It's funny, my knowledge of the DC/Superman universe still comes mainly from some collectible cards given away with Weetabix in the late 1970s, so I am still FASCINATED by the whole Kaldor in a bottle thing, or Lori Lemaris, or any of the lamer villains I remember reading about on them.

Is it a thing with Luthor, say, that he has been done badly in the films - portrayed as a bit of a joke - so people do not think of him as a serious villain?

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 5 September 2006 20:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know if he was ever portrayed very seriously ANYWHERE until Elliot S. Maggin's Last Son Of Krypton.

Kit (kit brash), Tuesday, 5 September 2006 20:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Was just reading in Fingeroth's Superman on the Couch about how villains, by design, MUST be more interesting than the hero. With the hero representing/defending the status quo, the villain represents a threat to such. Which is, y'know, the definition of cool.

Yeah, I don't agree with this at all. Doesn't every comic based around a villain sell terribly? Are any of Spider-Man's villains more interesting than Peter Parker? Are any of Batman's villains besides the Joker (and maybe Ra's) interesting?

Which doesn't mean that they're not good villains - Spider-Man and Batman both have great rogues galleries. But when Doc Ock is robbing a bank, that doesn't seem like he's a rebel who's fighting against the status quo to me.

The Yellow Kid (The Yellow Kid), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

are you saying that in your neighbourhood banks being robbed is the status quo?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 02:22 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe I didn't articulate well enough:
Fingeroth, speaking in generalities about action heroes, asserts that the Hero emerges when the status quo is threatened, takes necessary action to preserve s/q, then recedes until the next threat. The Action Hero ARCHETYPE (Fingeroth notes that Batman and Punisher are exceptions to this--though Batman and Punisher are part of the CENTRAL Action Hero Archetype of the last, what 35 years? Dirty Harry, Death Wish, Rambo, etc.) is essentially a reactive character, while the villain (in the Lex Luthor/Dr. Doom worldbeater archetype) is the one instigating change/revolution.
In a serial adventure series, the hero has to essentially remain static (though, Spider-Man was a dambuster on this rule), in order to always be there, ready to face the next threat. Therefore the dynamics of the series are provided by the villains. Fingeroth talks about Stan Lee talking about Bullpen sessions and how discussion of villains was always the key thing.
Though, thinking about it (and typing about it), it occurs to me that the change didn't really come from the villains as characters, the change manifested itself in the villains. IE, Doc Ock changes into the Vulture becomes Sandman, etc. The hero is constant, the villains are inconstant.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 02:34 (seventeen years ago) link

and, yeah, Fingeroth totally makes some remarkable leaps of logic, even mentions FASCISM!, which all seems a lot less novel in the post-ILC univorn.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 02:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Are depth of backstory and depth of rogue's gallery inversely related? Just wondering.

M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 03:00 (seventeen years ago) link

But when Doc Ock is robbing a bank, that doesn't seem like he's a rebel who's fighting against the status quo to me.

Er, "status quo" doesn't necessarily mean oppression/fascism, and fighting against doesn't necessarily mean rebellion in the political sense. Spider-Man tries to uphold the status quo of law and order, and Doc Ock is threatening it by doing crimes, but that doesn't Doc Ock is a revolutionary trying to bring about a better world. Or, take Dark Knight Returns for another example: in it Batman is the rebel fighting against the status quo, but he's also a leader of his own fascist militia - so it's Batman's idea of an order against a different kind of order.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 06:02 (seventeen years ago) link

but in spidey's world street crime IS the status quo! and indifference to it is what got his uncle killed!

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 12:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, surely Luthor, as a bloated billionaire plutocrat, is also the status quo?

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 14:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Who are you calling a bloated billionaire plutocrat!

Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 14:35 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah... luthor... kingpin... they all run game in comic book world.

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link

We need a hero who not only rebels against the status quo but also against the band Status Quo.

Vic F (Vic Fluro), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

That is a rockist position.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Surely it's anti-rockist as Status Quo were rockin' all over the world, requiring an international coalition of superheroes to stop their nefarious deeds? Much like Millenium but with a pub rock group instead of the Manhunters.

Vic F (Vic Fluro), Wednesday, 6 September 2006 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link


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