film noir

"Which is why, if Terry Lennox really treated Marlowe the way he does in Chandler's original novel, Marlowe TOTALLY would have shot him to death. In a heartbeat."

Nothing in any of the Marlowe novels indicate to me that he would have done that.

But they are both fictional characters. They don't exist. There's a whole code and mythology there, but it's not like we are actually examining the actions of real people. In fact, I'm always surprised that the novel was written in 1953, which was really late for Chandler, Marlowe, and this genre in general.

I think what Altman is saying in the movie (and what I was trying to say above) is that if there was a REAL Terry Lennox and he REALLY treated a REAL Marlowe like that, and it was a film 1973 instead of a film 1953, there would be more than just a bitch session and a disgusted sigh.

Alex I'm not trying to be an asshole here

X-Post: For what it's worth, I figured Marlowe did what he did in the movie as a way of punishing Lennox for everything he was directly and indirectly responsible for that had happened. Lennox would have gotten off scot-free.

Nightmare Alley and Detour - both about as uber-classic as it gets

Blood On The Moon - an odd one because it's a noir western, but it works for two reasons: 1. Robert Mitchum. 2. Robert Wise directs.

Marlowe punishes him in the book by not being his friend basically.

"I think what Altman is saying in the movie (and what I was trying to say above) is that if there was a REAL Terry Lennox and he REALLY treated a REAL Marlowe like that, and it was a film 1973 instead of a film 1953, there would be more than just a bitch session and a disgusted sigh."

And that's one of the reasons why the film is a failure, because I think that Altman is WRONG.

"Sure, in the novel of The Long Goodbye, Marlowe doesn't shoot Lennox at all, just bitches him out. To that extent, you're right."

Also I could be wrong here, but I don't think Marlowe ever shoots ANYONE in any of the novels!

"In fact, I'm always surprised that the novel was written in 1953, which was really late for Chandler, Marlowe, and this genre in general."

It was the second to last Marlowe novel and it was far more ambitious in scope and (dare I say it) less noir-ish than his previous ones.

"That's another thing that sets Out Of The Past apart - it's low on shadows!"

But high on darkness!

Also I have that book you mention and I have read it.

"Search: DOA (original)
Destroy: DOA (remake)"

You can destroy the remake of Out of the Past, Against All Odds while you are at it hah.

And The Long Goodbye (the movie) is about as far from most noir in theme and tone as can be!

But I understand your reservations about it all.

I recall the summit meeting with Marty Augustine being kinda shadowy...

Among Gould's most essential dialogue is "This is where I say ... then you say..."

Anyone seen the trailer for the Sundance noir where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is the dick -- in HIGH SCHOOL?

The greatest of noir heroes in a novel about the greatest of noir heroes crumbling and becoming disillusioned and irrelevant by the best noir writer (this is debateable btw) who was fumbling at the time with his own direction/pretensions. And anyway whatever the source material, Altman completely pulled it away from that anyway.

"It's still a story about a man pitted against society, out of touch with the vulgarity of his time, trying to do the right thing in an ugly world, which is one of the major noir themes."

But I see only a little of the first (certainly Gould's Marlowe is no more pitted against it than say any of the counter-culture figures of the moment), none of the second (he seems totally of and comfortable with his time), and gah-wha? I guess but on the final one that's pretty much the theme of like "life" ya know and not real exclusive to noir

But I do have a question: who's a better noir writer? James Cain is the only other real candidate, right? And I love Cain, so if that's yr choice I can get behind that.

The Driver

White Heat is on TCM tonight in teh wee hours.

Robert Mitchum C/D, S/D

I haven't seen The Big Sleep for some reason, but can anyone tell me if my favorite line made it into the movie? -
"Mr. Cobb was my escort," she said. "Such a nice escort, Mr. Cobb. So attentive. You should see him sober. I should see him sober. Somebody should him sober. I mean, just for the record. So it could become a part of history, that brief flashing moment, soon buried in time, but never forgotten--when Larry Cobb was sober."

and The Empire Strikes Back. (and she was a she)

Only Chandler book I've read is The Big Sleep; vastly prefer the film. Without the lighting and the actors blowing smoke in each others' face, on the page so much hardboiled fiction comes across as macho bullshit.

Scarlet Street is a remake of Renoir's 1931 La Chienne, which obv has the same plot, but in style is a sort of absurdist tragicomedy.

Ha! I might have done the same back in the day. I might also have confused C.L. Moore with the title character in Cordwainer Smith's "The Ballad Of Lost C'Mell."

My top 5 Noir authors:
1. Thompson
2. Cain
3. Willeford
4. Chandler (props for inventing the genre could make him #1)
5. Hammet

Interesting how, to me, I think of Orson as being one of the personifications of noir, yet he isn't, really. Except that he used expressionism in everything he did (in b&w, at least). The only proper 'genre' picture he did is Lady from Shanghai -- which I'd mention as a recommendation as, even butchered as it is and with a horrible music score, is spectacular, premier league luncacy.

Some argument over Touch of Evil. Obviously not a noir, really, but close on a lot of points. (Ditto Third Man: not a hint of urban America in sight, though in every other sense a clear contender.)

I also like Double Indemnity a lot. I prefer it to Postman, because the two leads are, well, let's be honest, kinda UGLY compared to the beautiful Garfield and Turner, which makes it more interesting. The script is also better. Postman is kinda patchy and badly structured... it might be considered a poor film if not for the great lead performances raising the bar so high.

Fred and Barbara both bring the right kind of sweaty cheapness to their parts, Garfield and Turner in Postman aren't able to be as unlikeable as Cain characters need to be.

I guess Welles is just too much of himself to be included in a genre, sort of like you can't call Jimi Hendrix a bluesman even though he was a very good one. Orson with his big budgets and top-level crews was able to explore the imagery of noir more deeply than the "get it done in two weeks" directors ever had an opportunity to. Even some of Jane Eyre (which, like 3rd Man, he sort of co-directed just by being around) has noir in it.

What I like so much about Cain (& Thompson -"the dime store dostoyevsky" ) is their ability to get inside semi-repulsive characters -no Marlowe-style heroes in their stories- and allow one to understand (and even sympathize with) them, to follow the inner logic of their self-directed doom. To me that sort of cynicism (the kind that rules Detour) is what anchors the genre and what limits my rating of Chandler a bit. Just as authors, without the appended "noir" I agree that "Chandler is just straight out the best writer" of the lot.

I've only read The Big Sleep of Chandler's, too. I liked it without necessarily totally loving it or feeling much for the characters. It's an exercise in style, really -- presumably, all of his work is? I think, due to truncation and change, the film makes even less sense. I could be contentious and argue that the book does almost make sense. :) It overdoes the atmospherics -- the crime equivalent of Lovecraft's fixation on ambience -- but no doubt it captures a lot of things brilliantly. I don't rate the film high on the noir scale, though. Sans Bogie and Bacall, it'd be a pretty minor effort.

Oh, I just picked up the DVD of Scarlet Street. It's an Elstree budget release, so no doubt from a worn theatrical print, but I don't remember ever seeing it and am looking forward to checking it out...

Oh no way. HOWARD HAWKS! It would have been fantastic whoever was in it.

I didn't assume there was any sex with the bookseller, either. Maybe I missed something. :-/ I thought she kind of offered herself, but he was too preoccupied to take her up -- albeit with some regret? Oh no, I didn't miss an obvious visual metaphor anywhere, did I?!

Anyway, the film is lots of fun, don't get me wrong. But to me, not quite up there with Double Indemnity, Maltese Falcon, even Lady from Shanghai. (NTS: must watch that one again soon.)

What I'm looking forward to massively is this fab box-set of Mr. Arkadin from Criterion. (Um, Euro-noir?)

Jeez, he's not even credited with directing that, and the degree to which he did is uncertain.

btw the high school noir, Brick, is being released next month. Richard Roundtree is in it.

i'm borrowing the lady in the lake from the library to remind myself if I feel like championing it or not

anyway, in high school, when my friend kip and i used to hang out at his brother's condo and watch movies all night, dark victory came on; kip was bored and went to sleep, but i stayed up and watched the whole thing, because it was AWESOME

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol17/issue09/screens.windsor.3.gif

"I bet your the kind of man that does push-ups every morning just to keep his belly hard."
"..You got something against good health?"

Just saw something about Richard Fleischer by Dave Kehr in the Times- a few films showing at the Walter Reade and Film Comment in the coming weeks.

Oh man just saw Night and the City starring Richard Widmark. One of the bleakest noir films I've ever seen. Widmark is amazing in it.

Richard Fleischer thing starts on Friday at FF. It's in color- in Cinemascope!

Wow this 1948 UK film Daughter of Darkness was just given dvd reissue by Redemption films. It's both British noir and femme fatale wrapped in one with plenty of chiaroscuro and gothic vibe. Definitely recommended.

http://www.thelmagazine.com/images/blogimages/2009/09/30/1254335093-daughterofdarkness.jpg

I think I'm noir illiterate. Watching the big sleep - drunk, granted - and I can't make a lick of sense out of it.

iirc an actor approached hawks before filming the scene for his death. "i know my lines, howard," he said, "but who kills me?" and hawks thinks for a second and says "well hell, i'm not sure. hang on." so he rings faulkner, who wrote the screenplay, and he asks him "hey bill, who kills this guy?" and faulkner says "damn howard, I'm not sure. hang on." and he telegrams chandler "who killed butler STOP hawks wants to know STOP"

next day hawks gets a telegram: "hell if i know--ray"

iyigd

why chandler had to telegram hawks when they were in the same city is beyond me, but i fuckin love that story

I thought Chandler's line was actually "who cares?" which I think is funnier.

Isn't there some companion story of Hawks saying something to the effect that making that movie taught him that the plot didn't really have to make sense?

the studio thought the original was boring and made him do reshoots. the result capitalized on the bogart-bacall relationship but made less sense.

hawks continued to make films whose scripts were well-crafted by conventional standards.

later people began to interview this great maestro, this incomparable innovator of cinematic form, and he made up some stories that made him sound cool but don't really accord with the facts.

I'll buy that.

the original cut is on the US DVD and it gives an explanation for the chauffeur's death.

Anyone seen Nightmare Alley? I have seen most of the classics save, Detour and this. Think I like Kiss Me Deadly or Gun Crazy best.

Spent last week at the Noir City festival - always tremendous, especially with Eddie Muller's commentary.

nightmare alley is good, tyrone power trying to ditch the pretty boy rep

AFI Silver has just announced its 2019 Noir City DC lineup: https://silver.afi.com/Browsing/EventsAndExperiences/EventDetails/0000000010

Not sure yet which screenings I plan to attend, but a couple of them will be free co-presentations with the National Gallery of Art. And last year I liked Muller's intro to both versions of The Killers.