― jones (actual), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:13 (eighteen years ago) link
I gotta say, I can't think of a music book I'm more excited for since whenever. A compilation of his stuff is long overdue.
― miccio (miccio), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― deej., Monday, 6 June 2005 19:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― C0L1N B... (C0L1N B...), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:34 (eighteen years ago) link
on the other hand, by academic press standards, if all of the ilm regulars bought this, it'd be a blockbuster.
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Derek Krissoff (Derek), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:51 (eighteen years ago) link
(note: i am going to assume what i read isn't the exact final version of what will appear between covers in a few months, but i would assume the bulk of it is still in there.)
― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― teeth montrose (Cozen), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― teeth montrose (Cozen), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:05 (eighteen years ago) link
actually, i am going to pull this out again tonight. (that is if the various sections of it aren't residing in different boxes since i moved.)
xpost: yes, i am aware.
― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 6 June 2005 21:06 (eighteen years ago) link
This is true, sadly. For example, check out the descriptive blurb on the back of the DVD for Sideways. It's along the lines of "a scewball roadtrip filled with wine, women...and hilarity!" Talk about getting something wrong.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― teeth montrose (Cozen), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:22 (eighteen years ago) link
i raised this issue a long time ago, but not particularly successfully
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 6 June 2005 23:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 6 June 2005 23:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 6 June 2005 23:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 6 June 2005 23:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 01:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Derek Krissoff (Derek), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 01:19 (eighteen years ago) link
― Amon (eman), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 01:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:47 (eighteen years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 07:58 (eighteen years ago) link
Often authors write their own and I assumed that's what happened here, the sense of humor is suitably obscure and Koganesque.
― m coleman (lovebug starski), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 09:11 (eighteen years ago) link
(2) ILX is far better written than any commercial music publication or alt-zine ever, with the occasional exception of Creem c. 1973 and the Australian Smash Hits letter pages in the late '80s when David Nichols was Black Type. Of course, the thinking at ILX needs to be raised, which can be done easily enough if people are willing to dig deeper and truly respond to each other's posts. But you guys need to stop pretending that criticism and intellectual culture are created by the Big Intellectuals Out There. There aren't many Big Intellects out there, mainly because most of with those with intellectual potential lack a good outlet or stimulus for their ideas, and their brains stagnate. So it's up to you.
(3) At least three chapter are taken verbatim from my ILX writing, and some others have passages that are reworkings of my ILX stuff, plus quotes from ILX litter the book, so some of you are in the book directly (and many indirectly in that you can count as contributing to my ideas, hence to my book).
(4) I didn't know there was going to be a cloth version (since I'd been told otherwise). I also didn't know it was being printed in February 2006, as I was under the naive idea that something in the Fall Catalog was going to be available in the fall. You gotta go to ilxor.com to get the hot scoop.
(5) That's the full version of the Disco Tex essay at the Radio Free Narnia site. The book version will be two paragraphs shorter because I killed a couple that were so far beyond intelligibility as to be useless.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 23:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 23:13 (eighteen years ago) link
For what it's worth, here's the original copy I threw at them, which of course not only was too long but left out some who, what, where, when, and why:
One thing the original questionnaire didn't ask is what we're going to say the concept of the book is when we pitch it. By "concept" I don't mean what's really going on in the book as a whole, necessarily, but just a pithy sentence or two, e.g., "Marx Brothers stow away on a luxury ocean liner," "tough cop Nick Nolte is forced to work with wiseass con Eddie Murphy." If we don't tell reviewers what to say and consumers what to think, they won't know. So I elected "contamination" to be the book's buzz word, our selling point. Popular music is born in flight, chased by fear, heading towards unattainable glory. I ask why: Why do we define ourselves as contaminated, what do suburbia and the school system and academia and [insert your demographic here] gain by defining themselves as timid and fake and by setting the music on its restless journey? My subsidiary buzz words are "terror" and "social division": We pretend to suppress terror and social division and then send our popular entertainment off in search of what we've pretended to suppress. But I go beyond the mere asking of the question. I act out the adventure myself and insist that when other intellectuals act it out too, they keep their minds alive, their hairstyles in flux, and their tongues articulate, because they're a bigger part of the story than they realize, and if they avoid acting like know-nothings, bigots, and chumps but chase their ideals instead, they can help kick music journalism and cultural studies out of its present cowardice and stupidity (and "rock," too, if there's any hope for that moribund genre). So tough scholarly smart-guy Frank Kogan is forced to work with scrappy shifty wiseguy Frank Kogan, they define each other as phonies, chase each other into the unknown, dragging you along with them. Self-defined prankster anthropologists shun cultural-studies and leisure-industry niches. Stow away on cruise ship. Madcap adventures ensue.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 23:16 (eighteen years ago) link
― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 23:20 (eighteen years ago) link
You mean 'cause it comes from an author with male-pattern baldness?
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 9 June 2005 00:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 9 June 2005 00:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 9 June 2005 03:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 9 June 2005 03:01 (eighteen years ago) link
"For example, it bugged me when Michael Roberts called Ricky Martin 'watered down' in comparison to (supposedly) real Latin music, but I can easily myself criticize antirockists for a distorted, domesticated, watered-down version of Meltzer-Bangs-Kogan-Eddy style criticism. So I don't see where Michael Roberts and I are different in kind. He's just wrong in that particular instance. So I don't think rockism exists or ever existed, though I realize that I'm not going to convince people to stop using the word."
And don't distract yourself with wondering whether Meltzer-Bangs-Kogan-Eddy can really constitute a genre, or how much the antirockists took from people like us (and from Xgau and Frith and Emerson etc. etc. etc.). This is just an example. But it's a good example, given that Kogan et al. probe themselves and their culture, while the antirockist plays a game of pretend where it's the other guy who's hung up on authenticity and the antirockist pretends not to be. "Rockist" is not a viable concept, and this is because it can't distinguish the rockist from the nonrockist.
But anyway, how about this:
"So now so many musicians conform to the idea of truth that says that truth is raw, ugly, and primitive that this primitiveness is a cliché, it's a new brand of deodorant, punk-hardcore deodorant; ultimately, it's nothing. Punk isn't punk anymore, it's a bunch of musical/clothing signs that symbolize punk. It's closer to literature or advertising than to music."—Frank Kogan, 1985
And now, let's rewrite it: "So now so many musicians conform to the idea of 'Latin' that says that Latin music is energetic that this energy is a cliché, it's a new brand of deodorant, Latino-energy-brand deodorant; ultimately, it's nothing. Latin music isn't Latin anymore, it's a bunch of musical/clothing signs that symbolize 'Latin.' It's closer to literature or advertising than to music."
So, again, how is Michael Roberts different in kind from me? How is rockism different in kind from any other criticism that sees something of valued being cheapened? I'm guessing Roberts thought Ricky Martin was watering the music down to appeal to an audience that can't tell crap from the good stuff. I thought punk was dumbing itself down to appeal to the punks. "yr. identifying the term 'rockist' with the FORM of an argument." So? It seems to me I'm identifying the content as well. The only difference is that Roberts is walking an old trail in saying that the ethnic thing is more real than something that takes on Anglo characteristics, whereas my attack is somewhat more novel. But not all that much. Maybe I think Iggy is more real than something that now meets audience expectations. The content - not just the form - feels similar here. Both "Latin" and "Iggy" get to play the "other." And lauding Meltzer-Bangs-Kogan-Eddy: maybe that's because we're the other, the ones you've never seen before...
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 13 May 2006 06:49 (seventeen years ago) link
― alext (alext), Saturday, 13 May 2006 07:21 (seventeen years ago) link
maybe the point of talking about "rockism" is to talk about this pejorative idea of things being cheapened. there's a fear of corruption of some kind there, whether it's platonic or not.
xpost: i'm a little unclear on this superwords thing, but i'm guessing "democracy" qualifies in spades.
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 13 May 2006 07:23 (seventeen years ago) link
* Not being an expert on Latin music, I don't know the extent to which that criticism of Ricky Martin was valid. (I happen to like "Livin' la Vida Loca.") I thought the guy I overheard in the record store whom I mentioned above seemed biased in what are commonly considered rockist ways: valuing instrumental chops over technology, valuing a standard rock-based notion of lyrical "relevance," etc.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 07:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 07:51 (seventeen years ago) link
"They don't write their own songs" is a placeholder, an "explanation" that gives him the excuse not to probe himself for the real reasons ≠ it makes no difference who writes the songs
(I.e., I'm not a "music" purist who thinks music can be reduced to sound and that all other considerations can be ignored.)
But Enrique, notice your own screwy assumption (that the UGA Press's primay interest is in making a buck, whereas my primary interest is in expressing my ideas, and that the two interests are in conflict). Why assume that Martin & Rami are interested in making a buck, whereas Timberlake and crew would be interested in expressing themselves if they only were allowed to? Or, for that matter, why assume that they're not expressing themselves?
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 13 May 2006 12:34 (seventeen years ago) link
Also, that I want to get rid of the word "rockist" doesn't mean that the word is meaningless in its present usage (doesn't mean I can't more-or-less guess what kind of argument or attitude will get called "rockist"). Buzz words aren't meaningless; the problem is that they're used to produce a buzz in oneself rather than to probe.
Alex, my Superwords paper in college used "freedom" as one of its examples; "church of Christ" was my paradigm example, though I forget if it was in the paper. In fact, I forget if "Superword" was in the paper. (The paper is sitting in a box in my closet, so I can find out, in case I'm feeling energetic.)
I'm sure there is a Superword aspect to a lot of what Plato did. But the point I was making was that "Superword" itself isn't a Platonic concept, and it's one he would find abhorrent, probably. I was responding to the attempts above to say that "Superword" simply regurgitates old concepts, so who needs the term?
I'd say Plato's big Superword was "Reality," and that subsequent philosophy followed him in this. (His use of "idea" didn't really catch on, did it?) They had to destroy the village to save it. They had to make reality inaccessible to save it from being mere appearance. And eventually "reality" crosses over from super to stupor, if you buy into an either/or between "flux" and "antecedent being" - Plato did buy into that dichotomy, did he not? (But he wouldn't have used the term "antecedent being," which is a term that Dewey used to critique that notion of "reality.") (Again, I'm not up on my Plato.)
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 13 May 2006 12:53 (seventeen years ago) link
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 13 May 2006 13:05 (seventeen years ago) link
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 13 May 2006 13:31 (seventeen years ago) link
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 13 May 2006 13:37 (seventeen years ago) link
Wait, are you saying there are people who believe this?
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 13 May 2006 21:11 (seventeen years ago) link
--> this comment led me to reviews of the book found on complete-review.com, which in turn led me to Luc Sante's review, which in turn led me to Mark Twain's "King Leopold's Soliloquy", which in turn has inspired me to begin working on "King Dubya's Soliloquy" in a similar spirit
"We firmly believe that the pre-construction planning phase to a project is the 'Heart of Darkness' to a project's success."
--> and not its "Paths of Glory" or "Full Metal Jacket"?? ;)
"...I'll feel more comfortable deploying Koganian language..."
how do you differentiate between the various concepts of Koganian, Koganesque, and Koganistic? And which of these, do you think, is most likely to become a Superword?
― baby beefcakes, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link
― Patrick (Patrick), Thursday, 1 June 2006 00:20 (seventeen years ago) link
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 15 April 2007 12:34 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sandy Blair, Sunday, 15 April 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:52 (seventeen years ago) link
this is kind of interesting, primitive garage scuzz take on a more nihilistic modern lovers vibe
https://zachphillips.bandcamp.com/album/stars-vomit-coffee-shop-osr72
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 17 February 2021 18:47 (three years ago) link
I didn't know this thread existed. I feel a little self-conscious if I post a link here to a Zoomcast or to something I've written--Frank was posting whole reviews of his book!
I downloaded that Stars Vomit Coffee Shop cassette a while back--seems to have gone on Bandcamp in 2016.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 17 February 2021 19:13 (three years ago) link
Didn't know that 'til I read it here; thanks for the tip.I asked Frank about it after seeing this thread, and he says:
Zach’s a guy who had his own label, OSR, in Brooklyn* for a while and decided to do a reissue of Stars Vomit Coffee Shop. I’m sure it cost him far more than he made from it, though we actually put it together out here: I’d already done a transfer to digital and I guess what they call a remaster several years prior, and my friend Nathan at Denver Disc duplicated the discs for Zach at a discount. I put up the old liner notes and a few new comments when the reissue came out: https://koganbot.livejournal.com/362896.html And, unrelated to Zach, I’d done a digital transfer of England’s Newest Hit Makers at the same time as SVCS, and as luck would have it a Leslie Singer fan by the name of Hal McGee decided in 2018 or so to stream Leslie’s early music and videos online, with Leslie’s help and permission. He’s created a very handsome site, with notes and archival photos and posters. Anyhow, here’s the link to Your Mom Too’s England’s Newest Hit Makers. I recommend you listen to the individual songs since those use my (relatively) higher-quality digital transfer, rather than the stream of the cassette at the top of the site, the cassette being a duping generation or two down in fidelity. http://www.haltapes.com/your-mom-too.html Also, I did the camera work and gave advice and encouragement on a couple of Leslie’s videos, Hot Rox and Smokie: Portrait of a Glitter Babe, which you can find if you scroll down here. They’re quite brilliant: http://www.haltapes.com/gof-videos.html And you should check out the other of her vids too, obviously. The general site that links the rest of her tapes is here. Girls On Fire was the name Leslie used on much of her music. http://www.haltapes.com/girls-on-fire.html In any event, I don’t think anyone else has ever made music that sounds quite like Your Mom Too, especially the great “My Couch.” *But I see that Zach moved to Brussels last year! Still got all the above music on tapes: good fun stuff, not quite (at *least* quite)like anything else.
― dow, Saturday, 20 February 2021 02:26 (three years ago) link