― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 19:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
what's the idea. to have a string section play the thing and then have ashcroft 'suffering' over the top of it.
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
yes OK OK ARE YOU HAPPY NOW!!!!
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― david h (david h), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 23:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dsico (dsico), Thursday, 31 October 2002 05:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― michael (michael), Thursday, 31 October 2002 13:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Denise Lambert, Thursday, 31 October 2002 14:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 12 May 2003 20:35 (twenty years ago) link
wire>elastica (this one makes me very very mad), gilbert o'sullivan>biz markee, queen/bowie>vanilla ice, roy orbison>2 live crew, 'stones'>verve, willie dixon>led zeppelin even.
happy to see the site's still up and running.
― jleideck, Monday, 12 May 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
All hail fucking Ashcroft.
― Evan (Evan), Monday, 12 May 2003 21:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 19 January 2004 04:07 (twenty years ago) link
"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."
Adding tracks and instruments does not change the fact that the whole song, start to finish, is written very tightly around those four bars. The keys and changes are all in that sample. No sample, no song. He deserved to be sued.
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 19 January 2004 07:17 (twenty years ago) link
But it should be known that "Bittersweet Symphony" is not driven by some kinda brilliant pop songwriting, but rather by a simple sample. Too many people still give Ashcroft wayyyy too much credit for it.
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 19 January 2004 07:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 19 January 2004 09:55 (twenty years ago) link
― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 19 January 2004 11:01 (twenty years ago) link
I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.
― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 19 January 2004 13:43 (twenty years ago) link
― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 19 January 2004 13:49 (twenty years ago) link
F E
CB
― the hinterland (the hinterland), Monday, 19 January 2004 16:09 (twenty years ago) link
― the hinterland (the hinterland), Monday, 19 January 2004 16:10 (twenty years ago) link
you are an idiot.
― $$, Monday, 19 January 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago) link
― jed_ (jed), Monday, 19 January 2004 22:40 (twenty years ago) link
The RS riff goes:Da-da-da, da-da, daah-da, da-da
Nothing alike! Bogus litigation, clearly.
― Ian Grey (Ian_G), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 06:49 (twenty years ago) link
― minna (minna), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 06:51 (twenty years ago) link
But there's really not, that's my point. If you listen to the whole Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra (great name by the way) track, it becomes obvious around the minute-thirty-five mark. The leap from what's going on there to the main melody in "Bittersweet Symphony" is very small.
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 07:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 07:15 (twenty years ago) link
Ashcroft's collegiate romanticism (I can't make much sense from the philosophising and don't care to try too hard) just adds vocal texture. But the fact that a sample from an orchestral interpretation is turned into a rhythmic device means that the Verve did some serious creative work and means they deserve considerable credit for turning it into a hit - unless you want to argue that the Loog track was seriously likely to move any units at all without Ashcroft's intervention.
― plebian plebs (plebian), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 09:32 (twenty years ago) link
rather, it means that the verve made the simple mistake of not asking for permission for beforehand and thus forfeited their rights to have any say in the negotiation.
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 16:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 16:52 (twenty years ago) link
I believe Richard Ashcroft was allowed a £1000 'writer's fee' for his new words...
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 16:56 (twenty years ago) link
Whatever! I don't see any of you hating on Puff Daddy for what he did to Sting, oh hang on...
What's bad about these Ashcroft lyrics? Ususally he's a dick, but not so much here. I think it rocks and I did when I was 16.
― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 16:57 (twenty years ago) link
HAHAHA Enrique I salute you.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 20 January 2004 16:59 (twenty years ago) link
Oh come the fuck on , man.
― •--• --- --- •--• (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:05 (fourteen years ago) link
LOL
― proxymuzak (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:07 (fourteen years ago) link
http://marlinco.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/vanilla20ice-4.jpg
― proxymuzak (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:09 (fourteen years ago) link
:) i never heard that original sample. cool.
― Ludo, Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:11 (fourteen years ago) link
Embeddable version:
― worldwide global pandemic (Z S), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:14 (fourteen years ago) link
I like the orchestral version of that song better than the real one
― iatee, Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:24 (fourteen years ago) link
I heard the original some years back and it made me scoff. I never thought of Bittersweet Symphony the same way again (not that I was that big of a fan in the first place). The Verve struck me as a bunch of mediocre poseurs from the get-go and why some people make such a big fuss over them, I can't imagine.
― Earl of Gothington Manor (Bimble), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:31 (fourteen years ago) link
such a rad song + perfect at the end of 'cruel intentions'
― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:33 (fourteen years ago) link
^^^^^
― Satin Lives (Tape Store), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:34 (fourteen years ago) link
i felt like that when i heard 'superfreak' for the first time.
xpost
max otm loool was gonna doa 'cruel intentions' thread today but forgot. so dope.
― FREE DOM AND ETHAN (special guest stars mark bronson), Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:34 (fourteen years ago) link
David Whitaker really deserves some credit in that story, at least as much as Oldham (and certainly a bit more).
― Snowballing, Thursday, 30 April 2009 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link
I've always felt that the Verve get kinda hosed here. Yes, the chords and supporting bgd is the Loog Oldham orchestra. But the hooks are all theirs: the string melody, the vocal melody.
However much a douche Ashcroft is is beside the point. The orchestral tune is nice -- over the top of it the Verve made a big, catchy pop tune that's some kind of classic.
― Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:00 (fourteen years ago) link
uh if you take a big obvious uncleared sample like this you're pretty much begging to be sued, no matter how much stuff you add over it
― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link
Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.
That said the best argument that this is more Stones than the Verve is the fact that neither the Verve nor Ashcroft wrote anything half as successful.
― Alex in SF, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:08 (fourteen years ago) link
That’s very nice of them. It was always total fucking bullshit that Ashcroft had to give them the rights to the song in the first place.
― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:14 (four years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, January 19, 2004 1:43 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Hahahaha jesus that was fifteen years ago.
― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:17 (four years ago) link
Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure that most people made the connection between 'Bittersweet Symphony' and 'The Last Time' anyway - it's one of those things you really wouldn't have been able to figure out unless you were told what the sample was supposed to be. It's not, like, say, Shed Seven literally ripping off 'Back Street Girl' on 'Out By My Side', which was a really brazen, obvious rip that they didn't get sued over.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:19 (four years ago) link
It’s cool they did that. Does Ashcroft also receive a share of past royalties, or only future royalties? I looked up the source articles, but that point isn’t clear to me.
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:47 (four years ago) link
I would hope that he would get backdated royalties. It would be pretty shitty if he didn't, given that the song no longer gets the airplay it once did.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:55 (four years ago) link
The statement sounds like it's going forward, not backdated. It doesn't seem likely that Jagger (MICK Jagger!) and Richards would bother to have their accountants go through every cheque that's come in over the last 22 years, make sure that they have that amount liquid, and send it to Ashcroft.
― tfw you are not easily whelmed (sic), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:10 (four years ago) link
I agree it is hard to imagine such an accounting from Abkco taking place... though the result is indeed a bit of a “Bittersweet” victory for Ashcroft.This article also notes that “Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”
― get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:37 (four years ago) link
I find it difficult to imagine too, but then we're - quite rightly - not privy to the negotiations, so you never know. I very much hope he does.
― Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:43 (four years ago) link
“Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”
Those are what's controlled by ABKCO.
― tfw you are not easily whelmed (sic), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:53 (four years ago) link
About time
― calstars, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:06 (four years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YrllfAMwHI
this is pretty beautiful, honestly. has nothing to do with the rolling stones song "the last time"
― Trϵϵship, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:38 (four years ago) link
The AOO version is leagues better than the Stones's or the Verve's.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 May 2019 03:40 (four years ago) link
idk, i think bittersweet symphony is a great single
― Trϵϵship, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:44 (four years ago) link
But what of that "Treat Infamy" song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQ0qNtLq8E
― Mark G, Friday, 24 May 2019 10:20 (four years ago) link
It would be like if Dylan demanded royalties for Beck’s “Jackass”, no?
― brimstead, Friday, 24 May 2019 16:50 (four years ago) link
Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”Never change, Spotify.
― Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:20 (three years ago) link
David Whitaker really should have been compensated for the sample
― CRVTCHΞS (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:44 (three years ago) link
Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”
Never change, Spotify.
why would this change? (does it not say lyrics by Ashcroft, as per the album?)
― huge rant (sic), Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:54 (three years ago) link
It does not.
― Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 21 November 2020 12:12 (three years ago) link
I assume Spotify gets those credits directly from the licensor (would have to light the Glenn-signal to confirm).
― down like 6:30 (morrisp), Saturday, 21 November 2020 16:25 (three years ago) link
yeah, if the official credit does now go to the band or to Ashcroft, one wouldn't expect that to change in sleevenotes unless there was a new "release" with new metadata - an anniversary remaster, an appearance on Best Britpop Anthems Of All Time... Ever!! etc.
― huge rant (sic), Saturday, 21 November 2020 20:20 (three years ago) link
Even then, if the track is there already, it won't erase or update the previous
― Mark G, Saturday, 21 November 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link